Another offensive question for the Brannamanites

[mvp]

Apologies in advance for asking what might be a hard question.

To what extent do you all think horses extrapolate from the groundwork stuff to under saddle stuff?

I’m talking about some sophisticated things, not basic colt-type desensitization or moving away from pressure.

I do mean things like the horse following the feel and never bracing in a rope halter on the ground and then also being soft in my hand when I’m on his back.

And if I get a horse really stepping over with his hind end on the ground, did I teach him how to do that? Did I invent aid for that on the ground that has some relationship to what I do under saddle? (I time my steps toward him on the ground and my leg with his legs when I ride) Or did the ground work just make him strong enough and loose enough to do that under saddle?

I ask because of how my horses are going right now.

One has gotten a lot better at stepping over under saddle because I got some big steps on the ground (finally).

After some “I’m serious, it’s your job to keep this rope soft. Take responsibility and don’t pull on me,” discussions, they are diligent about that on the ground…… but I’m not convinced I’ve seen anything change in their relationship with the bit under saddle.

What do your horses tell you about the ground work/riding relationship?

[Emilia]

[I]I just re-read it and it is long. The only thing, I would really like to recommend is to check the European schools of ground work (in hand, longeing, long lining). It covers the entire education of the horse all the way up to high-school.

[/I]
I am not Buck Brannaman’s fan in the sense of being called “Brannamanite.” I read the books, saw the movie, and own his 7 clinics though. I like to dip into many sources and compare.

Little nuggets of knowledge can be found everywhere, even outside the horses. As a matter of fact, I learnt a lot about the soft way to handle a horse by watching a Bedouin, who was preparing his camel for a caravan journey to the desert.

Mr. Brannaman is a good western horseman, but he did not invent ground work. I learnt in Europe, where ground work is divided into in-hand, longeing, and long lining. Europeans did not invent it either, I don’t think.

Horses have been prepared from ground for ages. It is a traditional way to start a horse in many riding schools, as well as to introduce basically every new piece of knowledge later on. Many horses like it, because it helps them to learn step-by-step. In-hand, they do not have to adjust to rider’s weight. They just have to concentrate on adjusting themselves.

It takes a lot of hand/eye/body coordination, good self-management of energy (how intense or not to become; the duration, meaning, either quick “whip” or longer “push” or “lean”), and reasonably good feel. Perhaps, that is the reason it has become a lost art. In a way, it is more difficult than riding. I certainly do not see it much here in the US.

In our club in Europe, we would do everything in hand first, then longe and long-line, then riding. This would include jumping, on line (jumps had special protectors, so that the line would not get caught- it looked like half wheel). Even finished horses were worked in-hand occasionally.

The work in hand/ground work will directly translate into your riding. The degree, in which it translates, depends largely on the skill of the handler.

Meaning, one has to keep his/her approach and cues consistent (placement, intensity, etc.). This is probably the hardest part and takes a lot of experience, because horse looks/feels somewhat different from ground and from the saddle. At least, to me, he does.

For instance, where you touch with the whip on the ground (your cue), there you have to touch with your boot or spur from the saddle and that all with the same intensity. It is hard!

Practice, practice, practice. Horses are forgiving.

Many people use voice commands, so that, if something gets lost in translation, horse has help to see, what you are looking for (even, if you are not communicating it well with your body).

I have different commands for movements. Then, I make different sounds I use to show him he has it right/wrong/searching in the right direction/searching in the wrong direction.

Now, a horse will react slightly differently from saddle, but that is because he has our weight to worry about, too. Being a truly quiet rider helps tremendously, when introducing concepts mastered on ground from the saddle.

Among other in-hand work, I like working with the bit/contact/give on the ground, because I can stay directly with my horse and, with my hand close, I can experiment with softness, and feel his responses better. I try to remember, the way reins lay (angle and such) and the way it feels in my hand. Then, I look for those responses from the saddle. Again, if I am not consistent in the way I ask, it is not working. He does not understand, then tries to fill in or just gets frustrated.

When I first started to be with horses in the US, I experimented with many of western/natural horsemanship approaches. I have since mostly abandoned them and returned back to my original horse upbringing based on European manege riding and cavalry.

It is a very quiet, soft, and compassionate way to be with horses and one I understand better. Now, my teachers were no sissies. They could firm up, but, mostly, they did not have to. Quick in and out, if needed. This is the part of energy management- to be able to raise it high and then bring it back down in a split of a second.

I have no experience with ranch work and open plains- there is no point for me to pretend like I am preparing a horse for the Wild West.

I would recommend to check some sources about ground work as it is done in Europe (in-hand, longeing- no side reins, please, long-lining). It can be very sophisticated! You might find some approaches/explanations that might shed more light and help you in your western ground work.

I would also like to stress that the in-hand sessions have to be short, to the point, and with frequent brakes. It is mentally taxing. Our horse gets frustrated/annoyed, if he does not get a break every 10 min. or so. He really tries though. The session is never more than 30 minutes and even that would be varied work and a lot of “loose” walking side-by-side.

People often “last” longer in in-hand/ground work and thus won’t give their horses breaks they would otherwise get if under the saddle.

I cannot do, what my teachers could. I am struggling like any other adult amateur. However, I am grateful to have the background, because it allowed me to never deviate too far from the path of compassionate horsemanship.

Enjoy your horse!

[veezee]

You will never go wrong with putting in as much time as possible doing ground work. It will make a huge difference when you are finally in the saddle. Good luck and enjoy what you are accomplishing with your partnership with your horse!

[aktill]

The horse will only take as much with them as you do, and even then, not everything directly transfers. All these guys say they only do a minimum of groundwork themselves, and prefer to do most of their own training from horseback. The emphasis on groundwork is to keep their students safe.

So some transfers, but not all.

[TKR]

I’ve been starting babies for 30+ years and groundwork has always been the cornerstone for under saddle work. Most of the young ones come in not even leading properly, much less standing quietly and square in the cross ties. Working on the ground and reinforcing each thing on a daily basis is very helpful in establishing parameters and helping the young horse to begin learning in a positive manner. Each step works with the next and builds confidence and relaxation if done in a quiet, matter of fact and fair manner. I always like to have a young horse accustomed to wearing tack, lunging and grounddriving prior to riding. Yes, they do translate the commands with voice and aids and learn to walk, trot, whoa and turn as well as carry something on their back and in their mouth. Grounddriving also teaches them to accept someone in a position more in line with being in the saddle. I think the Brannaman methods of moving their feet on command helps them coordinate in response to the aids and it does indeed translate to a rider. It will actually protect your arse should something scary arises and the horse feels the need for flight and provides a means for them to move their feet as opposed to standing still, while staying under control and in a small space. This also translates to listening to the rider and finding trust and confidence. I’ve seen this work firsthand with a young mare of mine that is very reactive (quick!) and tends to want to whirl and run if frightened. A young lady who has worked extensively with Buck Brannaman schooled her with these methods and it made a huge difference as well as regular riding and training helped her to connect and trust me. The methods and her response to them gave me confidence about handling her through her fears. She has now conquered those fears for the most part and does not have the tendency to react quickly and negatively to a stressor. I have great respect for those like Brannaman who actually understand a horse’s mind and how to best work with it and help them become a good partner.
PennyG

[pAin_t_Misbehavin]

I’m glad you asked the question, mvp.

In my case, groundwork has helped my groundwork. :lol: I still have a reactive horse under saddle. But on the ground he’s a much more pleasant animal to be around than he was before - and we’re both a whole lot safer. So that’s a good thing. :yes:

I’m not ready to say groundwork doesn’t translate to work under saddle, though. I know my timing and coordination is much better when I’m working the horse on the ground than when I’m in the saddle. And I’m far more confident on the ground. So I think I’m better at getting the message across on the ground and maybe in the saddle not so much. One of my goals for the new year is to even out my lop-sided skill set.

Not saying this is what’s happening in your case at all. This is just my experience. At this point, I just don’t have enough data to say whether groundwork translates to work under saddle. Maybe by this time next year I can give a better answer!

[Huntin_Pony]

I think it’s about that elusive “feel.” If the groundwork teaches you and the horse to work off feel, then THAT will translate to the saddle. If the horse has learned that a big step under with the hind leg is “the answer” to a certain feel on the ground, then it’s your job to offer that feel from the saddle and most likely the horse will have the answer pretty quickly.

Ray Hunt said, “if your horse is not doing what you want, then you are doing something wrong.”

For me, this remark is the incentive to search within myself for new ways to interact with my horses and then look to the horses to tell me when I am going the right way. It’s all about offering a feel that the horse understands and wants to follow - a GREAT puzzle!

[ccoronios]

“I would recommend to check some sources about ground work as it is done in Europe (in-hand, longeing- no side reins, please, long-lining). It can be very sophisticated! You might find some approaches/explanations that might shed more light and help you in your western ground work.”

Sylvia Stanier has books on lungeing (yes, this is the way it’s spelled in the title) and long lining. Search on ‘sylvia stanier art long reining’ or ‘the art of lungeing’.

[Flash44]

I think some trainers learned the most direct way to get a consistent response from a horse. If the horse understands that pressure at a specific point on the ground means step over, then that can translate into the horse quickly learning the same response under saddle when a similar aid is given.

Some of the things we ask a horse to do under saddle require a real effort from the horse, meaning strength and balance. To make an analogy, a person wants to learn to dunk a basketball. You need to both develop strength in the legs to jump high enough, and also teach the body movement to put the ball in the net. The natural athletic ability of the person and the physical condition of the person will dictate how long it takes to teach the person to dunk the basketball.

This is why we reward “try” by releasing pressure. As the horse gets stronger and more advanced in learning, you expect a response that is closer to the ultimate behavior you want elicited. You do need to keep in mind that not all horses are capable of all advanced maneuvers. You also need to consistently set your horse up to respond correctly, and not make the task too difficult to understand for the horse. A confused horse is going to respond incorrectly to pressure, and may do something very wrong (such as buck, rear, bolt) to escape pressure.

[Pocket_Pony]

The question is not offensive and is certainly valid to training, no matter what type of “philosophy” you subscribe to.

I have found various things that help Mac learn. For some reason TOF and TOH was greatly helped by the use of cookies while mounted. SI and HI really benefited from in-hand work prior to getting on. Flexions and response to pressure on the barrel are helped by preparation on the ground. Respecting my space and yielding to pressure are confirmed through rope halter work.

I love BB’s DVDs and I enjoyed participating in his clinic. For some reason, his teaching style works very well for me and practicing the groundwork has really helped me with learning how my body affects/directs the horse. I also try to emulate his calm demeanor, as I tend to have a quick temper. So even for me, without taking into account Mac’s understanding, there has been a translation from the ground to the saddle and my use of energy, body positioning, aid system, etc.

Your question of “Or did the ground work just make him strong enough and loose enough to do that under saddle?” is a good one. I find the ground work has really helped to make Mac supple. I use it before almost every ride as an opportunity for him to stretch out, warm up, and get loose in his body before I get on - just as I do yoga before every ride. So, yes, I’d say the ground work makes him strong enough and loose enough. But some of the groundwork itself isn’t enough to translate to what I want (at least from the DVDs) as I progress in my training. So in the beginning, it is helpful, but as Mac advances in his skills, I do different types of ground work to prepare him - more of dressage-style in-hand work than the stuff you’ll find in the BB DVDs.

The thing that concerns me long-term with the ground work is the large number of small circles. So while it was helpful in the beginning and for a time, the preparatory work I do now is a bit different in that I use the entire arena - and I do a lot of walking. I use poles, big 30-m circles, small 10-m circles, shallow serpentines forward and backward, transitions, etc. I think those things do transfer to a more supple and strong horse and in some cases studying his footfalls and balance helps ME refine my aids under saddle.

I think for developing feel in the rein, probably the best thing to do would be ground-driving, but my skills aren’t good enough for that at this time, so I spend a lot of time warming up at the walk and working on timing of my rein aids and moving a foot. But the understanding of it all started from the ground.

[TKR]

If you are starting from ground zero with a baby, the groundwork is helpful because the horse can actually see you and the first thing you have to gain is their attention. Once the horse is focused on you - which is easier for them if you are front and center, you have a pupil set up to learn. By going at the pace that fits the individual, you can create a relaxed atmosphere that will not only engage the horse but will help him find confidence. Those are the building blocks to learning. You must maintain the attention and not let the horse down as far as the confidence they have in you. But you also must have confidence in yourself and your ability to teach. It is essential that the horse fully understand what is expected and is praised and rewarded when it is accomplished. Small steps and small time increments are imperative at this point. Don’t overface and don’t continue too long. Keep it positive, simple and enjoyable. Once the lessons are learned on the ground, it should transition to being on board because you have truly taught the horse what the response should be to an aid, not forced. You must also translate the same confidence you show on the ground to in the saddle. If you lack confidence, the horse will sense it and it will make the horse uncertain about what to do. If you can’t follow through in each phase, let someone more capable do the training. It’s harder to fix something screwed up than starting afresh. It’s also very important to allow them to learn to learn as they progress, keeping it positive and increasing the duration slowly. I like to give a young horse a day off every two or three days. Even if it’s not physically demanding at this stage, it is mentally and emotionally draining and those brief breaks can make a huge difference in a good way. Training is a long process and you can’t rush it. Establishing a good routine makes a horse much more comfortable and happy.
PennyG

[DLee]

I think it is tremendously helpful if I remember to try and do the same things, use the same cues, when I am mounted as on the ground. At least as close as I can.

Such as when Mindy was helping me last year with my mare, I am lifting upwards on the rope, close to her head, to get her to bend toward me but yield away from me, crossing over behind and also yielding her front end away. Once I got on, Mindy had to remind me to get that same feeling, reaching forward up her neck and lifting up with the rein as I asked her to yield and cross over behind, to help my mare understand it was the same thing we had just done.

I try to carry over as much as possible that way. If I get it right, yes, it makes a big difference in how it goes under saddle.

Also, yes the groundwork made a big difference in her suppleness and strength, she’s very tight, helping her to take longer steps (and me to be able to SEE the difference) without my weight interfering whatsoever. It became much easier for her under saddle than before.

[cowboymom]

Honestly, I think they recommend so much ground work b/c they think it’s best for the RIDER to start there.

The very extremely good trainer friend that I have says on his own horse he can do it all from the saddle from the start. But he’s doing clinics for horses with owners that aren’t professional trainers so they have to take it back for the person, and of course, in that way for the horse’s benefit. When he decides to sell one of his horses he starts having other people ride it to “dumb it down” b/c they’re so sensitive to him.

I don’t think that for every person it translates straight from the ground to the saddle; there is a difference there for a lot of people and what works on the ground for the person doesn’t always go with them to the saddle. Anxiety, hands, seat, balance, feel… Trainers like BB are trying to make it easier for people to get along with their horses and it’s best for people to learn the building blocks from the ground.

[Wirt]

If I understand the original question, it is not whether ground work is good or necessary, but what relationship does it have to what you are doing on their backs.
Or is the question about Bucks groundwork, and how it relates to what he says to do from their backs? Two different questions.
This is what I have noticed about some peoples ground work, in the attempt to teach feel, and the use of “more sophisticated” techniques. If the work does not relate to the tactile sensation, through the lead rope through your hand to the horse’s head, or mouth through a rein, to what you want their feet to do, it is a waste of time.
The reason I say this is because many of the thing we can ask a horse to do from the ground is visual. Round pen work is visual. The horse watches us, responds to our body language. That is not to say that is bad. But when we get on a horse, he can no longer see us in that way. That is the part that won’t transfer. It becomes more tactile. There is weight, and gravity and balance now. The horse has to feel of us. He is now lost to us visual the way we were on the ground. That is an important distinction. It is important that we have established meaning from our hands to his jaw, tongue,mouth, head, (what ever your equipment is) to his brain to his body to his feet. Contact is important, and the meaning of that contact.That can be taught on the ground, but only from the stand point that you are going to ride him. I don’t like seeing clinicians teaching all this visual feel, with the line dragging on the ground, or no contact at all. That is where the more European work in hand comes in. It is called in hand because the horse needs to be in hand when you are on his back, or no matter what other ground work you have done, other than get him gentle, will not transfer. My work is sort of a hybrid between the two. But I want to be a reinsman. That means reins are important. The horse has everything good we don’t have, except hands. Hands to horse is the perfect combination of the two, I think anyway.

[Fillabeana]

The work in hand/ground work will directly translate into your riding. The degree, in which it translates, depends largely on the skill of the handler.

Absolutely.

I think there is SO much to Buck’s groundwork. You can get things going ok, get it ‘right’…and then learn a year later that you were missing something really big.

I was watching figure skating on the TV the other day. Somebody did a triple-Salchow/double loop combination, or some such thing. They ran it again in slow motion, and I realized that I had NO idea what kind of jump they were doing, which leg they were taking off from, which leg they landed on. All I saw was the skater going along, WHOOP they were in the air spinning, land and take off and spin around again, land and skate off with a smile on their face.

The skater has two legs, can be going forward or backward, sliding or using an edge or toe grab. The skater can be pushing on a right or left edge of an individual skate.
In order to make a jump, the skater is very clear on what direction they are going, what foot/edge they are on to take off, and what direction and leg they land on.

So, back to Buck.
A horse doing a turn-on-haunches (TOH) in groundwork, should be using himself the same way he does in a rollback, or to turn a cow, or to pirouette.
I can get that movement right mounted, I have had that working well for a year or so.
But I JUST got that on the ground.
In my internal dialogue, it kind of goes, ‘OK we’re walking along and I’ll ask your hind end to step over leg-yield because I want you to weight the OUTside hind and the life comes up and we change direction THERE on that outside hind and exhale and around and off we go…’

And then, JUST as important as which leg is weighted, which leg is swinging in what direction for the horse to make a comfortable, ergonomically sound ‘movement’, is the ability to ask the horse to do it on a feel.
You might show him what you’re looking for with pressure-and-release. But you will pretty much start annoying the horse if you don’t take it all the way through to a feel.

I have two ‘best’ groundwork moments in my memory.
One is the TOH, or ‘rollback’ that I got timed beautifully and my horse responded beautifully, the first good one I got from the ground.

The other, happened unloading my saddled horse from the stock trailer. Horse is tall, trailer is not, and horse was not in the center but to one side, where the saddle horn would catch on the metal brace on the trailer.
I saw this shaping up from where I was standing outside the trailer. I picked up on the lead rope and brought it toward the center of the trailer, Horse felt me, my intent, and the lead rope move. He followed that indication (the halter never came tight, Horse followed the feel of the rope) with his feet, and came right out of the trailer in the center where the horn cleared the metal braces. The timing was so perfect, and Horse just followed the intent with his feet…because he knew, given the timing, that I was addressing his feet.

Another example to give here, was at a Buck clinic last summer.
(This is all paraphrased!)
We were on the ground, one gal had a question, “Buck, why does my horse get so annoyed and swat his tail and make faces when I ask him to step out on the circle?” (Gal picks up lead rope, puts her hand out to indicate direction, swishes flag without touching horse, and horse walks out where asked to, with crabby-face and tail swatting.)
Buck asks, “What would he do if you didn’t use the flag at all, if you just picked up the lead to indicate what you would like him to do?”
(Gal picks up hand and indicates. Horse stands still, doesn’t try anything.)
Gal, “Apparently nothing.”
So Buck says, “You always ask him nicely first, just indicate. You give him that opportunity to do what you’re asking without swishing the flag, swinging the end of the rope, just on the smallest indication. And then, if he chooses not to, you come in with Whatever It Takes To Make It Happen. One, Two. Pretty soon, the horse starts LOOKING TO YOU for that indication.”

If you are ‘doing groundwork’ only on pressure/release, you are only going to be able to do a little bit at a time/a little bit every day before you are drilling or annoying the horse.

It is human nature to ‘know’ how much flag-swat, how much little kick, how much pull on the rein it is ‘going to take’ when you ask something of the horse.
It is REALLY, REALLY hard to have that discipline within yourself to always ask, just once, in that really subtle polite way, and then go right to ‘big enough’, or whatever it takes to get it done.
We so want to ask, ask a bit more, ask a bit more, and that is the recipe to dull the horse, to take the HORSE’s responsibility to feel back to you, away from the horse.

So anyway, back to your question…

To what extent do you all think horses extrapolate from the groundwork stuff to under saddle stuff?

A horse will extrapolate to the extent that
a)You really know what you’re asking for, your timing is excellent and the horse feels GOOD when he follows your ‘dance’ lead, not like you’re going to trip him half the time
and
b)You can get the horse beyond pressure/release both on the ground and mounted, he’s on a feel and looking to you for direction and life

[mvp]

[QUOTE=DLee;7375223]

Such as when Mindy was helping me last year with my mare, I am lifting upwards on the rope, close to her head, to get her to bend toward me but yield away from me, crossing over behind and also yielding her front end away. Once I got on, Mindy had to remind me to get that same feeling, reaching forward up her neck and lifting up with the rein as I asked her to yield and cross over behind, to help my mare understand it was the same thing we had just done. [/QUOTE]

I’ll bet this kind of thing creates the most direct and most useful “extrapolation” from ground work to under saddle that there is.

The bad news is that it takes a lot of feel and concentration from the rider. The good news is that the horse is moving slowly (so the rider can feel, think and respond instead of being in a speed-induced brain fart). More good news is that finding this feel-- the place where something you did with a rope on the ground and then the rein while under saddle influences a hind foot-- isn’t rocket science. IMO, it can be learned.