Another question - changing tree angles

[Pocket_Pony]

I mentioned in one of my threads that I have a saddle on trial that I really like for myself - the quality of the leather and craftsmanship is great and I feel close to Mac as I do in my dressage saddle. I rode in it in Bryan Neubert’s clinic and mostly liked it but I think the angle of the tree is too wide for Mac so that the top portion (by the withers and spine) makes more contact than the bottom (toward the ribcage). I contacted the saddler and told him of my concerns and that I’d be sending it back. He was very generous in offering to adjust the tree for me by “shimming” with saddle leather (by taking the skirts off) the wider part at the bottom in order to create a better angle for Mac. Whereas this tree is 92-93 degrees, he would shim it (with smooth seams so that Mac wouldn’t notice) to be more of a 90-91.

The saddle is lovely and otherwise I really like it, but I’m worried that the solution wouldn’t really fix the problem? Or would it? I remember that aktill had a similar problem with his horse and I remember seeing photos about it. Anyone else have a situation like this?

I cannot believe how hard western saddle fitting is!!!

[Fillabeana]

Hmm. That might just work. If you could, though, I’d leave that until you’d completely given up on other saddles. It would mean that you BUY the saddle, and then pay to have the tree shimmed (unless saddlemaker is offering to do the work gratis, which it sounds like he may be), and then hopefully that works. If it didn’t work, you would then have to sell the saddle before you bought a different one.

Also, if the saddle really shifted, you could be looking not only at a bar angle issue (thinking of the Wintec colored gullets in english saddles that you can change) but a rock issue.
Rock is like the ‘banana’ shape to the english panels/western bars. A tree can have ‘more rock’ and be more banana shaped, or have ‘less rock’ and have flatter bars.
You said that the saddle shifted back as well as side to side, I’m not sure but there might be a rock-in-the-bars fit issue as well. Possibly the saddle you have, that shifted, has too little rock for Mac’s back. And the tree would have to be shimmed to correct that problem, too, before it was a great fit.

You found that the tree in the too-big Martin Wade saddle was very stable.
I would contact the Martin company and ask them about the specs (and the maker of) the tree in THAT saddle. Whether you find another saddle like that one, that fits your butt, or you have the tree shimmed on the one you have, you will want to match rock as well as angle. It is quite possible that you could arrange for a tree like the one inside the Martin saddle, to be available to the other saddlemaker as a template while your tree is being shimmed.

I rode in it in Bryan Neubert’s clinic and mostly liked it

Is there anything else about the saddle that you weren’t crazy about other than the fit for Mac?

I remember the other saddles as having saddle strings that were just on a D screwed into the tree. I would take the opportunity while the saddle was being shimmed to change that- if you ever got your mecate (or a saddle bag) that was tied to the saddle strings, caught on a tree branch or fence, it would pull the D-attachment screw out and strip it if the saddle string didn’t break first- you can’t really repair that.

So…where I would go next is to the tree inside the Martin Wade, and find saddles to ride/try that are made to the same specs, but with a smaller seat size.
It may mean a lot of emailing or calling tree makers or saddle makers on ‘available’ used saddles to find out just what’s inside. Most saddle makers are quite knowledgeable about the trees, but some more so than others. So while it sounds like a mouthful, I think it would work pretty well to cull out saddle-tryout possibilities.

But at least at that point you’re not shooting ‘blind’, and can start with something that will very probably fit Mac so you just have your own butt as the variable.

And…it IS possible to change out the ground seat in a saddle. If you find something close, a saddlemaker can take out the skirts/seat and re-do the ground seat to YOUR pelvis. Probably not the best answer, but definitely possible.

[aktill]

I’ve changed the bar shape on two saddles, and it worked pretty well. The downside is carrying around more weight, and getting the skirts back on if the change is significant.

Not a small amount of work, but possible:
http://www.easphotography.com/Tindur/ReShaping%20Bars/

I personally wouldn’t bother changing a degree or two, but I suspect the changes might be more then that. I’ve changed 95 to 107, but going from 91-92 isn’t really much of an angle change. Read “Geometry and Bar Angles” here:
http://www.rodnikkel.com/content/index.php/understanding-tree-measurements/bar-angles-why-the-numbers-are-meaningless-between-makers/

When I say that, I’m agreeing with the statement that there’s likely more of a fit issue than just the fork angle if the tree is moving.

[Fillabeana]

Thanks for the pics, Adam.

I have two very round mares, and it IS a big deal for them to have the stirrup leather/bar slot well defined, otherwise the stirrup leathers make an annoying bump that easily ends up as a pressure point/dry spot.
Essentially, having the stirrups installed on the tree without having a cutout for them, gives the saddle more rock than you need.

[aktill]

Welcome, and I agree. Quoting my favorite site as of late:
http://www.rodnikkel.com/content/index.php/saddle-tree-blog-from-shop-and-desk/of-arizona-bars-and-why-we-won-t-make-them/

[Pocket_Pony]

aktill, interesting article about the Arizona bars because that’s the type that this saddle has…hmmmm… I did feel underneath the saddles on the panel as I move the stirrup leathers around and I couldn’t feel them.

Would the Arizona bars be a definitive no-go, then? I guess I could ask him about whether or not there’s space for the leathers - when I looked up there I didn’t see any notches, but nor did I feel any bulk of the leather poking out.

Fillabeana, the saddler is offering to do this gratis, which is very generous of him, and I appreciate his good service in offering. It is hard to be a Libra because I am not a good decision-maker and I don’t know what to do!!!

[Fillabeana]

I’d probably not buy another saddle with Arizona bars, now that I know that’s what gave me so much grief about the roping saddles I had a few years ago.
I’d think it would work better on a horse that wasn’t so wide…but the saddles don’t fit very well on other types of backs, either. They just aren’t stable like the Wade saddles that I have.
You can shim some of the rock out to give more room at the stirrup bars (I use a Correc-tor pad and it works OK) but that makes the saddle not so stable.

That is indeed a generous offer. Most saddlemakers I know are really nice fellows, and they really want their saddles to be something you love and the horse appreciates.

[Fillabeana]

Oh, and I think Adam rode his saddle while it was still a ‘rigged tree with stirrups’.

I rode mine while it was in process. The tree (made in NZ) was put on my horse’s back before the saddle was started.
A few weeks later, I rode the saddle sans stirrups or cinch, I was led around a bit. At that point, I got worried because the seat was really uncomfortable- but it wasn’t ‘there’ yet…anyway my saddlemaker saw how and where the ‘unchangeable’ geometry of the tree interacted with his back and my pelvis. Came out great!

And I’m a Libra, too. I can vacillate with the best of 'em. Let’s have a birthday party together. Only problem is deciding where- Mac’s barn or Bean’s?