Another rider death

[Jealoushe]

@Tackpud

Condolences to the family and friends of both rider and horse. Losing a loved one in this manner causes unimaginable pain.

I am not a current event rider or trainer but I have been a professional in the business for a lot longer than probably many of you have been alive. While I specialize in the H/J industry, I have done combined training in the past and have had many students who compete in that discipline.

One of the biggest issues of combined training is the lack of a consistent set of eyes on each rider all the way around a course. Yes a jump judge is at each fence, but many are volunteers without a knowledgeable eye. Yes the TD should be around to watch, but often they have other duties to attend to and can’t watch every rider. So riders are out on course without a specific person watching the entire ride - often because no one can see the entire ride even if they move around. So who sees the problems and discusses this with the rider?

Many bemoan the H/J trainers whose clients can’t go in the ring if they aren’t there. But the trainer is there to improve the horse and rider and make comments on the riding. Combined training does not have this person. So riders don’t know if their cross country riding is below par until something happens.

Someone above suggested a rider ability score for each round - that’s a damned good idea! Someone else mentioned that a cross country round should ride like a hunter round - smooth and even just faster - YUP! There is NO reason for running and then jerking on your horse’s mouth 1-3 strides before a jump at any level in any discipline. That’s just bad riding no matter if it’s in a ring or a field. If your horse is unbalanced before a jump, it means the horse hasn’t learned to carry itself correctly and you are putting the both of you at risk. While I certainly don’t think hunter riding is the be all to end all, there is a lot to be learned from putting in a smooth round with all the jumps matching and out of stride with no discernible change in pace.

Unfortunately in 2020 course design does not really allow this at the higher levels, unless you are as talented as MJ and Andrew Hoy.

The issue is, we need the sport to allow mistakes. It needs to allow misses and near misses. Currently the cost is too high in a miss. The margin for error is way too small.

[Ghazzu]

@Gestalt

Has any riders family ever tried to sue for a ‘wrongful death’? Who all could be listed as responsible? The venue, course designer, property owner, ??? Honestly in this day and age of lawsuits for all I’m surprised it hasn’t happened.

https://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/18/sports/olympics/18eventing.html

[RainWeasley]

@YEG

I haven’t said “it’s too soon” or “it’s too difficult”. Please re-read my responses. I agree we need to talk about it and have even a more systematic approach to analyzing these things. It was a few people’s comments that were upsetting. I also chose my words carefully and said that it was implied- I know no one came out and said that. The posts I was referring to were not analyzing mistakes in a productive way, they seemed purely judgmental and blaming to me. Well, everyone is free to interpret things differently. When a friend has just died perhaps it’s harder to see past tone to some friendly, helpful intent that may or may not be there.

But please don’t say I’m trying to shut down discussion. If you look back, I’m trying to contribute to meaningful discussion as well.

I didn’t mean you specifically, I’m sorry if it came across like that! This is a subject that’s popped up several times though, just in the short time I’ve been on COTH (which is really sad), and there are always a few well meaning people that stop by and try to get the conversation to stop because of how the family members/loved ones/etc would feel about the one who passed being analyzed like that. Which I do understand completely, but it also keeps it from getting any better.

[LSBC]

@Ghazzu

https://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/18/sports/olympics/18eventing.html

The same family who sued the USEA also sued Fresno State for the death of their eldest daughter. They didn’t win. I can’t imagine what they must have been going through.

I think this type of lawsuit in the equestrian world would be exceedingly hard to win.

[enjoytheride]

@RainWeasley

I didn’t mean you specifically, I’m sorry if it came across like that! This is a subject that’s popped up several times though, just in the short time I’ve been on COTH (which is really sad), and there are always a few well meaning people that stop by and try to get the conversation to stop because of how the family members/loved ones/etc would feel about the one who passed being analyzed like that. Which I do understand completely, but it also keeps it from getting any better.

For me it’s about not being a jerk and saying you saw it coming less than 24 hours after someone died. It’s about being upset and having compassion.

I don’t think talk talk talk helps anything get better. We have long threads in abusive riding and rider or horse deaths on this BB and I can’t think of any action that came from it. I’m not discounting the people on this BB who have tried to change things. They’re doing good things.

I think we like to be outraged because it is a sport we love and a big thing on our mind. But there’s a difference to me between outrage and action. Although I’m sure I’ll be attacked again for supporting abuse somehow.

A dear friend of mine died in an accident and I understand how it feels to feel helpless.

I think this is a good example of action. Feel helpless? Donate to this Go Fund Me. Or find another action to take.

https://www.gofundme.com/f/frangible…f+share-flow-1

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

In one of the comments on the Eventing Nation piece, A plea for Transparency, someone linked to the recent article by Eric Smiley in Horse and Hound.

It’s an interesting read. I certainly do not know enough to say bitting is even one of the causal factors in this recent tragedy for both horse and rider… but he has points that are certainly relevant to the overall situation with repeated rotational falls in the sport.

Perhaps if there were a more limited number of options for riders to use on cross country in terms of bits, frankly at the lower levels, it would force horse and rider combinations to really address holes in training on both parts, BEFORE they progress up to the next level, while the stakes are still lower in multiple ways.

I don’t know the right answers… but I think the intense focus on frangible technology and collapsible tables is missing points that both Wofford and Smiley are making, in their own way, given the two articles which have been shared in the wake of this recent tragedy.

[Gnep]

@JER

Let’s look at this - again, actually because we’ve had this very same discussion here before, for probably as many names as there are on the death list.

If you gathered all the eventing safety committees, officials, whatever and said ‘Do you care about safety?’, the answer would be a unanimous, resounding ‘Yes!’.

But then you need to take a look at the culture and find out if that’s really true in practice.

Paying lip service to safety can mask what is called a ‘culture of indifference’.

The example we used here before was based on a lab accident at UCLA in which someone was killed. The court found that a ‘culture of indifference’ in the lab was a contributing factor in the accident. In a lab setting, this means that you’ve got all the warning signage posted and everyone’s had their two-day safety training course but what actually happens in the lab falls way short of the mark. You find a person not wearing safety eyewear, ‘just this once’ they tell you. Right. And then you find someone pushed a heavy cart in front of the eye wash ‘to get it out of the way’. And then you see that a lab tech is eating lunch with food spread out on his bench and someone else is applying nail polish at their bench. All of these people, if you ask them, ‘care very much‘ about safety. That’s a culture of indifference.

Cultural change is difficult, takes real effort and causes much discomfort.

Spot on. I am sure glad I brought me and my horses home a long time ago and quit the sport completely.
Just saw it on a news feed and wondered if the same old same old would be going on.

Stay save, Ladt

[Gardenhorse]

I agree that I don’t think jump judges get sufficient training related to rider safety or dangerous riding. However, when I have jump judged, we have always been encouraged to report anything that we feel is unsafe over the radio so that the TD can watch the rider in question.

The cases I have heard jump judges make comments on have generally been lower level riders going too fast. In at least one case I know that the TD did talk to the rider afterwards, but don’t know of anyone who has been pulled up on course for dangerous riding.

There was also one case where jump judges reported a pro at on a very green and disobedient horse at BN. Refusal then rearing when disciplined for the refusal - this occurred at more than one fence - and also rearing/spinning when asked to go forward between fences. The TD pro allowed the pro to continue on and I guess they did manage to get around without scoring that 4th refusal (that case might have been at an unrecognized HT at a venue that also does recognized).

[hb]

@omare

I thought on paper her results would indicate she could move up -what do you do about that?

You actually give a yellow card or pull the rider off the course for being out of control and riding into the canola field to try to slow down. That scary ride on the video from Rebecca last year was counted as double clear in the results.

Even if an official did have “a talk” with the rider afterwards, it needs to be reflected in the results.

[RAyers]

@Gnep

Spot on. I am sure glad I brought me and my horses home a long time ago and quit the sport completely.
Just saw it on a news feed and wondered if the same old same old would be going on.

Stay save, Ladt

Dude!!! Where the hell are you?! Call me!!

And for context, Gnep, is one of my mentors who threatened me with a whip for disrespecting my horse with a bad ride at Galway in 2006. He is one who never held back when he thought I was a danger to me or my horse and I thank him every time I hop on.

[kande04]

@SnicklefritzG

The only thing that will change the situation is for riders and owners to boycott these competitions. At that point maybe the governing bodies will do something. They currently have no incentive to do anything

the problem is the owners want to get their horses out, the pros need the income, etc.

It’s hard for me to believe that anyone thinks that this kind of riding is fair to the horses. I know we’re used to seeing it, I know that all sorts of people do it, but how hard is it to take a critical look at it and not feel outraged at what the horses endure?

[Training_Cupid]

This was the lead article on People magazine’s online edition today
https://people.com/sports/equestrian-rider-katharine-morel-33-and-horse-die-in-fall-during-competition/

[JER]

The People article is quite good for MSM (non-equine, that is).

It links to the Rebecca video. That could have some interesting consequences.

[Lori_B]

Even if jump judges were much more thoroughly trained, how would anyone address that sense of restraint and natural hesitation to insert their judgment into the riding of someone else, especially someone riding at a level far above whatever they are likely to have done themselves? Even reporting riding that they find worrisome or questionable to an event official feels daunting to contemplate. (jump judged a few times a few years ago, have only jumped quite small stuff myself)

[Bearx2]

@Virginia Horse Mom

Thank you for an excellent, informative post.

There is a very sobering saying amongst military aviators… essentially, aviation safety and training manuals have been written in blood.

Standing boards with individuals from a variety of backgrounds exist in different types of aviation (military, civilian, commercial) that examine serious accidents in great detail. Especially fatal ones. They look for causative factors, and issue comprehensive reports in the wake of these tragedies so people can learn, and for the safety of everyone going forward forward. Pilot error is a causative factor in many tragic fatal accidents. But tragic accidents are almost always multi-factorial. Failure to learn by deeply examine all factors is a missed opportunity. Pilots I’ve known have a deep love for aviation. Acknowledging pilot error in the wake of a horrible tragedy is not intended as a smear of a fellow aviator. It’s intended as a way to improve upon operating procedures, and to document and add to the general body of knowledge that aviators refer to as part of a continual learning process. To further hone their skills. To become better at their chosen risky profession/passion.

It seems like maybe if there was a more organized post accident analysis and reporting process within the sport, perhaps organized via the governing body especially when accidents occur at a recognized competition… that maybe it would mitigate raw feelings that those close to the individuals who have passed are experiencing as they witness a broader discussion going on in the community about this tragedy in comments online in various places. It’s a really hard thing. But there is a value to looking at all factors related to a tragedy. It can help in terms of continuous improvement with respect to safety. The legacy of those lost might be saving future riders. And that’s something to strive for and a positive way to try and honor and remember them.

We have something similar in the Park Service . Once the report is complete it is often sent out to the entire park service so other people can learn from the mistakes of others. I was told at risk management training that the goal was not to blame the person that made the mistake but to keep the mistake from happening again. Especially when that mistake cause someone their life.

[NaturallyHappy]

I think this is really sad and I cannot begin to imagine how the connections to this person and horse feel right now. However, I have to agree w Tackpud, the person that commented o the importance of straightness, as well as others who address the importance of good basics. I’m a show hunter-jumper rider who did a couple of BN with my nice horse for fun. I really can’t understand how a horse could safely jump something while crooked, and being pulled on so abruptly so as to have no rhythm…regardless of a canter or a gallop. I was taught to always work within the rhythm. I also fox hunt and have friends who have no rhythm when they jump. That would scare me.

[fanfayre]

I edited my post #159, just in case anyone thought I thought I never made a mistake …

[CindyCRNA]

@LadyB

I’m not against this post. I don’t know the rider, their background or the horse, never seen a video. But from personal experience in Eventing, with a coach who pushed me up the levels when I needed more time at the lower levels. I eventually moved on from the coach, when I looked at her I had Rosie glasses on. Now looking back, half of my horses career was based on fear and saving my a$$. Now he’s at 16, we are working at basics, when he should be a school master. Its embarrassing, but I’ve accepted it.

.

Standing here with you…

[CindyCRNA]

@bradt99

I’m glad you guys love your sport, but I will never get on a horse. Too many people have died or been seriously injured and I don’t feel like dying today.

Brad, for your own sake, you need to quit coming to these threads and probably to COTH in general. You are not helping yourself or anyone else.

[B_and_B]

Bear with me, crazy idea. And it won’t go anywhere since I don’t even have a USEA membership anymore. But, a lot of the issue (IMHO) boils down to being able to safely and effectively rate the horse. The issue being straightness, or biting, or control, or…etc. I am not just, or even really immediately, thinking about this tragedy. It just got me thinking.
So how do we judge controlled, straight, balanced galloping? The sort that leads to safely jumping on mile after mile of varied terrain, which is what the cross country course used to be asking about.
What if…the courses were longer, the required time was slightly slower, the speed penalties were even higher and: (here is the hard bit), if there were three timed sections of the course, maybe with jumps maybe without, I don’t know. And those sections were all the same length, but one required a fast speed, one a slow speed, and one a medium speed. Each with a margin for error, but not overlapping each other, so you had to modify your speed and make the time correctly for each one. And the penalties for too slow or too fast were independent of the overall time penalties and were high enough to impact scoring, i.e. screwing up on those sections was as bad as a refusal.
It would be hard to implement, you would need at least six timekeepers. But, I can’t think of a better way to ask the question of rating and control. And, again in my not humble opinion, the real issue in a lot of these incidents is that we simply don’t spend enough time working on the gallop as a controlled, working pace that should be balanced and should be as flexible as the canter or trot.