Another rider death

[bornfreenowexpensive]

@Lori B

Even if jump judges were much more thoroughly trained, how would anyone address that sense of restraint and natural hesitation to insert their judgment into the riding of someone else, especially someone riding at a level far above whatever they are likely to have done themselves? Even reporting riding that they find worrisome or questionable to an event official feels daunting to contemplate. (jump judged a few times a few years ago, have only jumped quite small stuff myself)

It really is not the role for a jump judge. They have enough to do…spotting dangerous riding is the role for xc stewards. Of which there are often several on course spread out with two radios…one just to the TD/ground jury and other hears the jump judges. Most xc stewards are experienced Eventers and do know what is DR. Perhaps there needs to be a requirement of having more stewards…some events have several and others have one. FEI events often have more than national events. But I don’t see that as a safety solution for riders early on course…but perhaps you may get more warnings issued.

of course this means we need more experienced eventers volunteering. And this is a huge issues as events struggle to get enough help as it is…

but it’s still a human opinion and people do generally give riders the benefit of doubt…as ultimately, riders really need to be responsible and pull them selves up. And I agree that we need a cultural change to speak up. Honestly I do think more people speak up than in the past. I do like the idea of limiting bits we can use for Xc…but where do you draw the line and does this penalize women more than men?

[McVillesMom]

@B and B

Bear with me, crazy idea. And it won’t go anywhere since I don’t even have a USEA membership anymore. But, a lot of the issue (IMHO) boils down to being able to safely and effectively rate the horse. The issue being straightness, or biting, or control, or…etc. I am not just, or even really immediately, thinking about this tragedy. It just got me thinking.
So how do we judge controlled, straight, balanced galloping? The sort that leads to safely jumping on mile after mile of varied terrain, which is what the cross country course used to be asking about.
What if…the courses were longer, the required time was slightly slower, the speed penalties were even higher and: (here is the hard bit), if there were three timed sections of the course, maybe with jumps maybe without, I don’t know. And those sections were all the same length, but one required a fast speed, one a slow speed, and one a medium speed. Each with a margin for error, but not overlapping each other, so you had to modify your speed and make the time correctly for each one. And the penalties for too slow or too fast were independent of the overall time penalties and were high enough to impact scoring, i.e. screwing up on those sections was as bad as a refusal.
It would be hard to implement, you would need at least six timekeepers. But, I can’t think of a better way to ask the question of rating and control. And, again in my not humble opinion, the real issue in a lot of these incidents is that we simply don’t spend enough time working on the gallop as a controlled, working pace that should be balanced and should be as flexible as the canter or trot.

I very nearly made this same tongue-in-cheek comment on one of Denny’s Facebook posts last week (before this incident happened).

[ladybugsbw]

@B and B

Bear with me, crazy idea. And it won’t go anywhere since I don’t even have a USEA membership anymore. But, a lot of the issue (IMHO) boils down to being able to safely and effectively rate the horse. The issue being straightness, or biting, or control, or…etc. I am not just, or even really immediately, thinking about this tragedy. It just got me thinking.
So how do we judge controlled, straight, balanced galloping? The sort that leads to safely jumping on mile after mile of varied terrain, which is what the cross country course used to be asking about.
What if…the courses were longer, the required time was slightly slower, the speed penalties were even higher and: (here is the hard bit), if there were three timed sections of the course, maybe with jumps maybe without, I don’t know. And those sections were all the same length, but one required a fast speed, one a slow speed, and one a medium speed. Each with a margin for error, but not overlapping each other, so you had to modify your speed and make the time correctly for each one. And the penalties for too slow or too fast were independent of the overall time penalties and were high enough to impact scoring, i.e. screwing up on those sections was as bad as a refusal.
It would be hard to implement, you would need at least six timekeepers. But, I can’t think of a better way to ask the question of rating and control. And, again in my not humble opinion, the real issue in a lot of these incidents is that we simply don’t spend enough time working on the gallop as a controlled, working pace that should be balanced and should be as flexible as the canter or trot.

Or add some sort of judged “equitation” type element to xc and have minimum overall scores to move up or something.

I hope some good changes come from all of this in some way or another. Sad for all involved in all recent accidents.

[Alterforme]

Admitting right away, that I’m not at all involved in the event world. It’s always scared me. I follow h/j land.
Years ago, when my kids rode, we were at a barn with multiple disciplines. My kids trailered out to the A barn h/j for lessons. Day to day hacking was at the multi discipline barn which we shared the riding field with some event people. Their trainer was at the this barn.
These poor event kids were being taught by this trainer that was flat out scary. They were lower level back yard type eventers. She would have them jumping in their dressage saddles with bike helmets. The stirrups were way to long and these students never worked on dressage that I ever witnessed. They jumped & jumped & jumped. They had NO clue what a distance was, or that lines had numbers.
They were taught to be brave , sit back & hold on & get to the other side of the jump. The trainer would teach them that everything was the horses job to figure out. The riders job was to steer & stay on. It was absolutely horrific to watch these horses try their hearts out over & over.
This trainer would take these kids to event shows and they would come back with ribbons and confidence in their ridding. They all had no base of support & no real knowledge of balance, straightness, distances & pace. They spent more time collecting lime green saddle pads & matching leg wraps then anything else.
My thought was that maybe the cross country portion of these 3 day events needs to be earned. You need to prove that you can get a certain dressage score & ride a hunter type jump course ( pace , distances & numbers of the correct stride)… if you can pass these tests, then you can do the cross country test.
I was always so fearful for those kids at that barn. The thought of them galloping around the cross country solid jumps with zero actual knowledge was terrifying.
I know this doesn’t really solve anything with the upper level eventers & rotational falls. But, changes need to be made in all areas.

[ACMEeventing]

@Gnep

Spot on. I am sure glad I brought me and my horses home a long time ago and quit the sport completely.
Just saw it on a news feed and wondered if the same old same old would be going on.

Stay save, Ladt

Sooo glad to see you posting. You have been trying to help this sport for a long time, I hope it hasn’t gone for naught

[Xctrygirl]

I know this will likely get me in trouble but I’m asking so we can find answers.

Does anyone know how many tables or “table like” jumps were on the Int course at RH last weekend??

I did a little back checking off some older videos from RH and I came away with 7 on some prelims (From what was seen on the videos, so obviously not every fence) But I thought there were more on some 2019 RH Intermediate footage. I did check back, and it appears (But I couldn’t find a 2019 Omnibus online still to 100% confirm) that the course designer was Morgan then as well.

On a couple I just watched from the Intermediate I saw 11 tables. If you include houses and the more rolltop like things, then we’re at 14. Out of a 27 numbered fence course.

Does anyone know how many were on the course this past weekend?

Em

[FitzE]

@CindyCRNA

[edit]

https://lifehacker.com/use-the-ring-…thi-1798540880

I think being mindful of ring theory is important especially with a recent loss like Brad has experienced.

[JER]

Ok so Kat Morel had a regular coach and was in FL with her training group/barn.

Everyone here - or very nearly almost everyone here - who has seen the videos agrees on at least one thing: that the horse was not straight.

How is it that a rider who rides regularly - for years - with a coach who has UL experience can get away with riding a horse this way not to mention moving up the levels?

How is it that the coach didn’t teach her the importance of straightness, apparently at any point in the years that the rider was competing this horse?

I don’t know the coach. I realize that Kat Morel was an adult and could make her own decisions so it’s possible that she’d resisted any attempts to - literally - straighten her out. But it’s also very possible that the coach doesn’t reinforce the basics and is fine with her students moving up whenever they scrape through the requirements. If that’s the case, this coach wouldn’t be unique, IME.

I’ve been haunted by the Rebecca video. And also the Red Hills video where she leave the start box crooked and it goes from there. Seriously.

I wish I’d discovered the Rebecca video last week or last month or last year. I wish I’d posted it on here on a thread called something like ‘OMG! - How is this not dangerous riding?’ (Which I have done with videos in the past.) I know I would have been raked over the coals by some BB members saying it’s not my business or I was hurting someone’s feelings or I have no idea what I’m talking about. All of that might be true but none of it’s as bad as Kat and Kerry getting killed on XC.

And you know what? It might have got back to the rider and she might have seen all the fuss and - who knows? - maybe someone who cared about her would have got through to her.

So this comes down to the one action we can all take that doesn’t cost anything. To borrow the well-worn phrase from Homeland Security, if you see something say something.

If you see someone riding dangerously, reach out to them. Ask how it’s going, tell them you saw them out there and you were a bit worried. You can do this in a friendly way and you may have a discussion of what’s going on with their riding and their horse - which all horse people like to do - and you’ll have expressed your concern in a way that might make them rethink.

Who cares if it’s a total stranger or a rider who rides at a higher level than you? It’s a human thing to say ‘How’s it going? I saw you had a bit of a hairy moment at the ditch…’ No need to be afraid to speak up if you spot a dangerous or potentially dangerous situation.

Make safety and riding concerns something that we talk to each other about as equals and without boundaries and without fear.

[Bending_Line]

I don’t know that I would sum up the main issue as straightness, although that is an issue. To me, it’s that overall it’s such a handsy, inverted ride that the horse hangs badly (especially in the first part of the course). Sometimes it looked like she was literally trying to hold up the horse’s front end in the air with her body and hands, and of course that is the complete opposite of what is needed to get the horse jumping rounder, safer, and more relaxed. There is no adjustability at all. I don’t know how you go from a dressage phase where there is a subjective element and plenty of room for commentary on suppleness, straightness, adjustability, etc. without anyone batting an eye, to a cross country phase where the attitude is all is well as long as you got around, no matter how unfairly the horse was ridden. I am in the camp that (1) the horse’s welfare needs to be at the forefront of training and competition decisions, (2) it’s a tragedy that such a game little mare was put in this circumstance, and (3) while we can all appreciate what a devastating loss this is for the rider’s connections, you can’t allow sympathy and politesse to get in the way of a fulsome, clear eyed, objective cause and origin analysis (of which our video review is only a small part). People who ride in competitions put themselves on a public stage and that carries with it public scrutiny, and those of us closest to the horse world (i.e., all the people on this thread) owe the most searching examination to try to prevent tragic repeats. The video was very concerning and I don’t think can be written off as a bad day.

[add_leg]

@Virginia Horse Mom

Thank you for an excellent, informative post.

There is a very sobering saying amongst military aviators… essentially, aviation safety and training manuals have been written in blood.

Standing boards with individuals from a variety of backgrounds exist in different types of aviation (military, civilian, commercial) that examine serious accidents in great detail. Especially fatal ones. They look for causative factors, and issue comprehensive reports in the wake of these tragedies so people can learn, and for the safety of everyone going forward forward. Pilot error is a causative factor in many tragic fatal accidents. But tragic accidents are almost always multi-factorial. Failure to learn by deeply examine all factors is a missed opportunity. Pilots I’ve known have a deep love for aviation. Acknowledging pilot error in the wake of a horrible tragedy is not intended as a smear of a fellow aviator. It’s intended as a way to improve upon operating procedures, and to document and add to the general body of knowledge that aviators refer to as part of a continual learning process. To further hone their skills. To become better at their chosen risky profession/passion.

It seems like maybe if there was a more organized post accident analysis and reporting process within the sport, perhaps organized via the governing body especially when accidents occur at a recognized competition… that maybe it would mitigate raw feelings that those close to the individuals who have passed are experiencing as they witness a broader discussion going on in the community about this tragedy in comments online in various places. It’s a really hard thing. But there is a value to looking at all factors related to a tragedy. It can help in terms of continuous improvement with respect to safety. The legacy of those lost might be saving future riders. And that’s something to strive for and a positive way to try and honor and remember them.

Yes, yes, yes. My brother is a pilot and we were talking tonight and the point came up where she said, “I never thought between flying and riding, you’d be the one with the more dangerous hobby.”

Aviation, climbing, NASCAR, the Park Service (just learned about that one, cool!), morbidity and mortality conferences, cheerleading, pedestrians, football (to an extent) - they’re all doing these kind of reviews and nobody is blaming pilots, drivers, physicians, etc. - they’re saying, “OK, this happened, let’s learn so it doesn’t happen again.”

I sure as hell hope if something happened to me, someone would dig into it and learn from it. Don’t let it happen in vain.

[Rallycairn]

@FitzE

https://lifehacker.com/use-the-ring-theory-to-keep-from-saying-the-wrong-thi-1798540880

I think being mindful of ring theory is important especially with a recent loss like Brad has experienced.

Absolutely! @bradt99 , please don’t feel you have to leave COTH because of an accusatory and exclusionary post like CindyCRNA’s. If posting on COTH helps you at all with your grief, please continue to do so, while also seeking out any help you may need from much more direct resources. You are welcome here! Don’t cut yourself off from something you’ve said has helped you in some small way. I am sure I am not the only one who welcomes you here – far from it.

[LockeMeadows]

Out of respect for the recent loss of this horse and rider, I will refrain from commenting on their video. I agree that is cruel and heartless.

I will share my point of view of the Eventing community in general.

Eventers tend to make fun of the Hunters saying it is “easy”. What they fail to realize is that flawless trip is a result of seamless communication between horse and rider. Many Event riders couldn’t put together 8 good fences if their life depended on it and it shows in SJ. I say many because there are some riders who are absolutely a pleasure to watch in SJ/XC. They are not the majority though. I’m always perplexed watching SJ at Events. If the horses went around in between the rider’s legs in a balanced manner and come back easily to a half-halt without flinging their head all over God’s creation, so many more rails would stay up!

I did a quick YouTube search typing in Preliminary Stadium Jumping. This is the first video at that level. Folks, this is scary. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agBmn6F5124 The second video wasn’t quite as bad, but the trip fell apart towards the end and that type of jumping could end VERY badly over a big solid fence such as a table. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yH6iRzUZ89k I would assume that they both took these horses XC? Scary…

Then I found this one. This rider is LOVELY. I don’t know who she is, but her base of support is wonderful. Even when her horse doesn’t get a great spot, she is tight as can be in the tack. What a pleasure to watch! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6pT7-xju4k This rider is safe and effective.

[bradt99]

@CindyCRNA

[edit]

I’m sorry I’m such a burden.

[Rallycairn]

@bradt99

I’m sorry I’m such a burden.

No, no, no! Please see my post above. Don’t feel this way; your loss is still so recent. You are welcome here!

[endlessclimb]

@bradt99

I’m sorry I’m such a burden.

You’re not a burden, bradt99. However, when you imply (with nearly no knowledge of the sport) that we’re all out there vying for our spot in a grave, it’s insulting. Do something positive with your feelings. Dragging a sport that you know nothing about through the mud is completely unproductive.

Like I said before, this is a heart-body-mind consuming sport for many of us. We know it’s dangerous, and we are trying to make it better. I’ll be blunt: Help us, or keep to yourself. Your relative would not want the sport abolished, she would want it safer - that I can tell you for a fact.

[AllWeatherGal]

@JER

Let’s look at this - again, actually because we’ve had this very same discussion here before, for probably as many names as there are on the death list.

If you gathered all the eventing safety committees, officials, whatever and said ‘Do you care about safety?’, the answer would be a unanimous, resounding ‘Yes!’.

But then you need to take a look at the culture and find out if that’s really true in practice.

Paying lip service to safety can mask what is called a ‘culture of indifference’.

The example we used here before was based on a lab accident at UCLA in which someone was killed. The court found that a ‘culture of indifference’ in the lab was a contributing factor in the accident. In a lab setting, this means that you’ve got all the warning signage posted and everyone’s had their two-day safety training course but what actually happens in the lab falls way short of the mark. You find a person not wearing safety eyewear, ‘just this once’ they tell you. Right. And then you find someone pushed a heavy cart in front of the eye wash ‘to get it out of the way’. And then you see that a lab tech is eating lunch with food spread out on his bench and someone else is applying nail polish at their bench. All of these people, if you ask them, ‘care very much‘ about safety. That’s a culture of indifference.

Cultural change is difficult, takes real effort and causes much discomfort.

Human nature at work. This information applies to so many behaviors from driving (we all KNOW texting is dangerous, but … just this once? oh, I’m adjusting music not sending a text …) to home improvement efforts. There is also a lot of peer-reviewed research that people’s “respect” for authorities limits speaking up (airline pilots, medical doctors).

It is culture, and a culture of individual rather than community.

[gardenie]

OMG Locke Meadow those were interesting videos. Great post. I spent this weekend at an xc clinic (one of so many over the years!), and the take away was straightness, connection, and adjust-ability all contribute to safety out of the startbox. Eventing is a great journey. To take a horse and train it from beginning to end is a privilege, and creating that partner using eventing is the best in my opinion. I have been that wild and wooly rider, and there by the grace of god go all of us. Experience is the thing you get right after you need it. I think these discussions are necessary.

[LadyB]

@JER

Ok so Kat Morel had a regular coach and was in FL with her training group/barn.

Everyone here - or very nearly almost everyone here - who has seen the videos agrees on at least one thing: that the horse was not straight.

How is it that a rider who rides regularly - for years - with a coach who has UL experience can get away with riding a horse this way not to mention moving up the levels?

How is it that the coach didn’t teach her the importance of straightness, apparently at any point in the years that the rider was competing this horse?

I don’t know the coach. I realize that Kat Morel was an adult and could make her own decisions so it’s possible that she’d resisted any attempts to - literally - straighten her out. But it’s also very possible that the coach doesn’t reinforce the basics and is fine with her students moving up whenever they scrape through the requirements. If that’s the case, this coach wouldn’t be unique, IME.

I’ve been haunted by the Rebecca video. And also the Red Hills video where she leave the start box crooked and it goes from there. Seriously.

I wish I’d discovered the Rebecca video last week or last month or last year. I wish I’d posted it on here on a thread called something like ‘OMG! - How is this not dangerous riding?’ (Which I have done with videos in the past.) I know I would have been raked over the coals by some BB members saying it’s not my business or I was hurting someone’s feelings or I have no idea what I’m talking about. All of that might be true but none of it’s as bad as Kat and Kerry getting killed on XC.

And you know what? It might have got back to the rider and she might have seen all the fuss and - who knows? - maybe someone who cared about her would have got through to her.

So this comes down to the one action we can all take that doesn’t cost anything. To borrow the well-worn phrase from Homeland Security, if you see something say something.

If you see someone riding dangerously, reach out to them. Ask how it’s going, tell them you saw them out there and you were a bit worried. You can do this in a friendly way and you may have a discussion of what’s going on with their riding and their horse - which all horse people like to do - and you’ll have expressed your concern in a way that might make them rethink.

Who cares if it’s a total stranger or a rider who rides at a higher level than you? It’s a human thing to say ‘How’s it going? I saw you had a bit of a hairy moment at the ditch…’ No need to be afraid to speak up if you spot a dangerous or potentially dangerous situation.

Make safety and riding concerns something that we talk to each other about as equals and without boundaries and without fear.

100% my thoughts after seeing the video as well. No position to be at that level with the horse not listening or working properly. Sad that it was never addressed, not necessarily not addressed by the coach as you said, she was an adult and made her own decisions.

If I ever look like this, and I don’t get my sh!t together, someone pull me off my horse.

[Zu_Zu]

B laced with strength and comfort for ALL who loved KAT & KERRY ON ~

RIP ~ Ride on together !

:sadsmile:[/B]

[endlessclimb]

@gardenie

OMG Locke Meadow those were interesting videos. Great post. I spent this weekend at an xc clinic (one of so many over the years!), and the take away was straightness, connection, and adjust-ability all contribute to safety out of the startbox. Eventing is a great journey. To take a horse and train it from beginning to end is a privilege, and creating that partner using eventing is the best in my opinion. I have been that wild and wooly rider, and there by the grace of god go all of us. Experience is the thing you get right after you need it. I think these discussions are necessary.

I am (was, or whatever) that wild and wooley rider. It’s where all my questions and requests for advice on learning and schooling a good gallop came from. My mare was dragging me through BN XC - with an extremely abrupt half halt I could get her back , but it wasn’t fluid.

I had zero plans of moving up this year, because I didn’t have a good handle on the level I was at last year. I want it to look and feel pretty, harmonious, and smooth before I even attempted a higher level. Somewhere, this message is lost to other riders - somehow they go barreling through a course and think “I finished on a number, let’s move up” instead of thinking “jesus christ that was a wake up call…”

This needs to change. Not only do the trainers hold responsibility for calling it like it is (especially with kids), adults need to take the rose colored glasses off, take away their self-imposed timelines for XYZ level, and recognize that “barely made it” is absolutely not good enough.