Another rider death

Add me as another low level amateur that didn’t think the Rebecca Farm video was totally out of the ordinary. I mean the horse looked strong and obviously was ripping around that course but it honestly doesn’t look that different from a lot of rides I see from kids with OTTBs around here. You’d be hard pressed to find a jump judge with the courage to call someone out on that for “dangerous riding”. I think it would take something more extreme to get flagged or carded in these parts.

Also should mention I saw on article on Kat and Kerry On in my local small town Ontario newspaper today, so this story is definitely circulating outside of the equestrian realm.

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Stop with the “eventers suck as SJ” crap. NO THEY DON’T. Sorry I’m yelling but no, they don’t. They also have THREE disciplines to train which is insanely difficult to manage. So maybe they don’t have the polish of an Eq rider or the skill of someone who shows 1.30m but that does not mean they suck at SJ. MOST are actually quite good, especially at the Upper Levels. Rails come down from minor mistakes, but we also have TIRED horses who have jumped XC already.
Trolling through Youtube you can find bad videos of any riders, any disciplines. You have no idea what was happening that day with that rider.

This attitude is not helping our sport at all whatsoever.

Every rider can improve, every discipline can improve. Saying "Many Event riders couldn’t put together 8 good fences if their life depended on it and it shows in SJ" is not only total BS, it hurts our sport.

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YES! There are a few riders I can think of I see at events here that barely finish, but their part time coaches, the social media crowd, all cheer them on, support them and push them to keep moving up when they aren’t straight, aren’t balanced, can’t get leads, and basically just run their horses at fences. They have bad dressage and multiple rails every event but go clean XC and that seems to be all people consider when moving up. Their goals are to upgrade as much as possible, and all this info is just right there available to us on social media now. Soon enough your luck runs out.

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I think those of you who think that ride looks ‘OK’ need to re-analyze your thoughts on a good cross country run. That horse was not listening, the rider was hauling on the face right before the fence, causing the head to fling up, how does a horse see a jump with their head up like that? It doesn’t, hence the bunny hopping over many of those fences, They were just lucky it was athletic enough to clear them. Add a wider spread and a higher jump, not so lucky.

If you think that riding is ok, that scares me. That riding is not ok. Just because you see others doing it, doesn’t mean its OK. Those people have been lucky. That horse had no respect for the rider, there was no straightness, a lot of those lines were angled and unsafe, and I don’t think those lines were planned. Was the horse pretty awesome, yeah, imagine how good it would be with a bit more foundation on its flatwork in between fences.

Maybe that’s where the issue lies, many riders think that specific ride is OK, well its not, IMO.

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If you rode like a hunter up to an Intermediate table, you’d get seriously hurt. I’m not trying to be flippant, but the two sports don’t compare and trying to make eventers like hunters or hunters like eventers won’t fix the problem.

Many eventers can string together 8 jumps in a good distance, so I disagree with that statement. The two videos linked show a horse that was overfaced (and a lack of scope) for the level and a horse that was lame – bad examples within our sport, sure, but not representative of the quality within our sport as a whole.

To be competitive at the higher levels you HAVE to be fast between the fences. Just about every horse that leaves the start-box is in a barely controlled bolt -exception being the true masters like MJ - who are extremely rare in the sport. Then you have these technical questions you have to dial back to a “show jumping canter” for in a matter of seconds, and then you have to make time by going into sixth gear between fences… This is hard to do smoothly even on a horse with no training holes… Which is part of the reason why eventing has seen such a rise of heavy bitting in the last 10 years…

This is what modern eventing is now.

The sport is dangerous. The jumps and how we arrange them is dangerous. The courses are pushing the limit of what horses morphologically are capable of doing within the realm of safety. Even the video posted by LockeMeadow of the 2012 Prelim vs the 2016 Prelim - there’s a big difference in the SJ course despite both being within specifications. The margin of error is too small, and it’s awful that a mistake can get riders and horses killed. That mistake doesn’t always come from an unratable horse either; think of the near misses this sport has had at the top levels the last five years (anyone remember the Andrew Nicholson crash at the hanging logs a few years ago?).

It is not the JJ’s job to be looking out for dangerous riders. They are volunteers. Most of them have some level of eventing know-how, but the job of looking for dangerous riding falls on the Stewards. We could tighten up qualifications but we’d still have people (trainers, parents) pushing riders up the levels. There needs to be a better system for coaches and trainers to say “No, you’re not ready” vs being “Yes” men. There needs to be less level creep because even in 10 years the courses are completely different. I walked my first recognized Training level XC course in the early 2000s. Just this summer, I walked the course again with a friend who was debuting at Training there. I remember my course and this new course was tougher, significantly more technical, and required some serious flying to make the time. I finished my course within time and hadn’t even tapped into 2nd gear on my horse - watching my friend it was really eye opening to see just how much the sport has changed, especially the lower levels.

Focusing on the frangible and collapsible fences, doing studies ($$$$$$$$) on the readability of fences, particularly table types, trying to find designers that are forward thinking and up-to-date on all the newest technology and advances… Sometimes I feel like the sport is hanging on to old customs and very outside the ring of modernity.

There’s a lot of problems in this sport. It’s not just one issue causing all of these awful accidents. :no: There needs to be more transparency, and more movement by our Safety Committee to analyze each of these cases and figure out how, going forward, these tragedies can be prevented. There are going to be some hard answers coming soon to our sport, even harder if things don’t change.

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I don’t think anyone here would admit to it being “ok” now that the COTH experts have determined it’s dangerous. But the fact is the Rebecca ride was average and can be typical of some areas where good coaching, events, training, etc. is lacking. If the sport is killing the average rider (even if the educated eye thinks they are not good enough to be there) there are serious issues.

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You are skipping over those who are saying just that ‘looks like lots of kids ripping around on TBs around here’ , etc.

This is the only equestrian sport where you are hurdling headlong at solid objects and hoping you make it to the other side. Better regulation of who can move up when is going to be more effective in the long run that frangible fences.

I recall watching a documentary about Paul Newman and his auto-racing passion. He loved racing, and he listened early on in his driving career when he was told to learn how to race in an underpowered car until he knew better what he was doing. That gave him the ‘bottom’ needed to excel.

Either place, on the track or in the field- hubris kills if you don’t know what the hell you are doing out there.

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One thing that would help achieve your very last sentence, which I fully agree with, is to stop the practice of posting a video with the title “OMG - How is this not dangerous riding?” Because that title shuts down your aim before anyone even opens the thread. It is exclusionary, it invites gossip, not critical, fair, inclusive analysis in the spirit of learning.

I completely agree we need to have those investigations and reports and conferences like doctors, aviators, engineers (hell I am an engineer), NASCAR, etc have. When we have an incident we need to all learn from at work we don’t watch the video and say OMG look what this employee did to the company truck.

If we are going to get there, it needs to truly be from a place of not judgment but trying to better ourselves and the sport.

So can we work on that? Can we start with changing our language, and invite discussion by saying things like “do you think X could have contributed”, “was X a good decision”? I really am brainstorming right now to see if we can find a format that works.

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SBM

In my experience on this board, if the public dislikes the person anything goes. If the public likes the person, don’t ask anything at all unless you are ready to pay in eternal hellfire. Been through it a few times here :lol: and basically was called a bully every time when my questions are genuinely questions or concern.

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See, here’s the kicker. We do GREAT in dressage, for a horse of her type. Low 30s, consistently. Totally had our flatwork down. We TOTALLY have a handle on SJ (minus some in gate issues which I was developing a routine to help us get though) - nearly always double clear and reasonably smooth.

It was just XC where we hadn’t “gotten it” yet. Flatwork didn’t translate to the adrenaline of an open area, and that alone is where I need(ed) to focus. No way would I want the fences any higher when we are cowabungaing through the little stuff.

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Maybe I’m misreading, but this seems like a contradiction in terms to me: 1. Modern course design inherently excludes all but the most incredibly talented. 2. So let’s modify that to make the margin for error greater.

I will always agree with making things safer where you can since sh!t happens. Heck, check out my paranoid thread about stall fronts that horses won’t try to jump over. But why can’t riders also take more pride in choosing the course and the ride that keeps them and the horse safe. I know I sound like a Fussy Hunter Marm to those who adore the culture of eventing. But there’s some merit in limiting one’s machismo such that one stays alive.

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I was at a clinic recently for SJ. A lot of eventers were there. The clinician (a GP rider- that was the focus-stadium) worked with a teen rider. Tried to help with control so the horse (teen wants to go Training this year- has done 3 events? non rated- wants to go fast and big) was not flipping its head every second and leaving from whatever spot it wanted. Clinician told the mother and the rider- I want you to have more control because I am afraid you are going to get hurt.

Clinician got on and schooled the horse. “This is what you need to do and work on to have control”. Guess what- kid cried, mom complained- clinician is a big meanie, texted the kid’s trainer. Now the teen will not ride with that clinician/trainer again. They are looking for a future horse that is hot and fast. Sent back a perfectly lovely trial that already had Training miles with a “kid” because “it isn’t forward enough”. Ok. I am saying exactly what people have said here- it is an accident in the making. Guess what- no one there cares. She’s a pretty rider, is brave is always told how great she is. Horse can jump high, kid goes with it- what do I know? Wants to do big, high, fast jumps but doesn’t work on dressage at all.

Sorry for the rant. I do not know how to change the mind-set some have that moving up, going fast and big is all there is without solid basics- which consists of more that hanging on. So much for a culture of safety. It is so frustrating.

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My comment was about making a 5* look like a perfect round, it was in response to someones post. Meaning only those who are basically eventing gods (false or not :wink: make it look that way. Many others can jump around it nicely and make it look good, but only a handful can make it look like a simple hunter round.

I agree with you, riders need to be more responsible (all of us) but if a rider has an ego and thinks they are amazing and they are far from it, how will they know they are delusional?

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Yes, where is the trainer responsibility? Honestly I think more of this lies on the coaches shoulders than they would like to admit.

I wanted to show my green mare and my dressage coach said, sorry but no. Until she can go in the ring and go properly the entire time, and be in total control and be ready to win she doesn’t need to show. Not everyone agrees with this, but more training and preparation for riders and horses will never ever be a bad thing.

I was listening to a podcast the other day and the rider (now I can’t remember who ugh) was saying how eventers show way too much and train to little. How we should really be training way more, and showing way less and that a lot of issues in eventing comes from this.

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Wait, wha…?

You want jump judges around the course to report what they think is dangerous riding such that someone else at a later fence pulls them up? That sounds hard in practice and in political terms.

But also, I think a rider on an XC course and in the hunter ring can be trusted. After all, you will have had the chance to walk the XC course with your coach. You already discussed footing and options for your horse. And this Hunter Princess was made to walk in every water jump while she was eventing as a kid. My coach warned me that my horse had no idea what he was jumping into, so it was my responsibility to know what the landing was like-- will a hole to avoid, slippery, how deep, etc.

I assume every rider cares about self-preservation to an extent and tries for that at some point in their preparation for an event.

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I’m not sure what the point of the videos of bad show jumping rounds was. I can’t speak for the second horse, but the first horse was a small mustang out of the wild for, what, two years, pretty new to the level and the big difference was that Elisa didn’t continue to move her up the levels after that. And I see awful rounds in regular show jumping as well, and beautiful rounds in eventing SJ. If it’s supposed to be that you shouldn’t jump XC without being able to do a foot perfect SJ round, that doesn’t necessarily correlate. There are riders that are amazing in SJ but terrifying to watch in XC.

I was watching the Rebecca Farm video again after it was posted in that article on People…and I don’t think that the ride into the unmown field was intentional. You can see the rider clearly looking to the next jump to the right, horse is on the right lead, then abruptly swaps and goes the wrong way. She is struggling with the horse who then jumps into the field on its own. That’s what concerned me the most about the ride. There was very little control, right before jumps, between jumps, just in general. Granted, I noticed this time that the sky looked really stormy, so that could be influencing the level of rideability of Kerry On. But what I don’t get is how many people are looking at the round and saying “oh I see that kind of riding on XC all the time so it’s fine”. It’s NOT fine. At all. It’s scary, and dangerous, and I honestly don’t think that anyone who is having XC rounds like that needs to be doing XC until they get their training up to par.

And THAT is another reason this needs to be discussed. The people that see that video and think it’s all right. It needs to be established in the general eventing public that if your ride looks like this consistently, then you have some serious holes you need to step back and fill. Saying that you see kids on OTTBs like that at every event doesn’t make it a good ride. For those that can’t see these things in this video, this might be a good time to really watch it and ask questions about what is dangerous if you still don’t see it.

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Here we go…

Ah! Thanks so much for clearing that up. Consider me enlightened.

Oh my. You are exceptionally skilled at combining sweeping generalizations and condescension into a single sentence.

Brilliant methodology.

Yeah, it is. This video has been discussed at length on this forum.

There were some sticky moments, however, the rider was quiet and managed the ride pretty well, IMO. But what do I know? I’m a stupid eventer who couldn’t string 8 good fences together if my life depended on it.

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Thisvideo really should be called: watch how the log ground line causes a fall at a MIM-table. I am not jumping on you but I am horrified they actually use this video to prove how great the MIM-tables are when you can see how the horse gets stuck in the ground line.

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Eventing needs a refurbishment pronto. The ones in charge over the past 5-10 years have messed it up completely. Quite a few European riders seem to think they are just guinea pigs on the course designers and ground jurors way to bigger events…

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Also, y’all, it was Jimmy Wofford who impressed me with this emphasis on basics and technique for both horse and rider. I was a ignorant, barn rat kid in NorCal when he came to give a clinic there. Unlike other clinicians I had seen, Wofford praised the “show ring basics” of a fine-equitating kid in my group. That is a verbatim quote. And he criticized me when i rode harder to a last, inviting fence that was warranted. He said, “Why did you do that? You just made what should have been easy for your horse hard.” The stadium part fo the clinic consisted of a gymnastic and all the horses jumped better by the end than how they hard started. Having been an untalented, but hungry rider for rides in the show ring, Wofford impressed me with the fact that the same attention to quality was necessary out side the ring, too. So, truly, I didn’t just ASSUMe that one could ride XC like a faster hunter course.

I will tell you all now, that Wofford’s teaching and his fine reputation gave me “permission” as a kid to disregard the people who were more about the “kick and pull” ride or just getting it done with guts and grit when outside the ring. I field hunted a lot of green and/or re-schooling horses then and in college. I rode them with an eye to keeping them in balance, reasonably soft and ratable and not frustrated. I believe the Wofford’s influence kept me safe out there.

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