The mustang rider earned a yellow card at Badminton for ‘horse abuse’:
https://www.chronofhorse.com/article/elisa-wallace-gets-yellow-card-at-badminton
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Agreed. I’ll sign.
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H
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@beowulf I think you read me too literally! I meant that a good x/c round should LOOK like a good hunter round, not that it should be ridden like one! Good Gosh
You know, rhythmic, flowing, straight horse, level knees, good form, appropriate pace for the level and jump type, like the rider is doing nothing just sitting there [although we know that’s far from the truth], any adjustments made far enough from the obstacle the horse is settled back into itself in enough time to read the obstacle question…
You know- all the things we were taught about x/c riding way back in the ‘dark ages’ of the hey-day of the 3-day, which is when I started eventing (late '70s)
Thank You @mvp for your clarification, that is exactly what I was meaning
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In regards to the frangible tables, is there actual research out there showing these are safe/safer? Or are we just running with a huge assumption?
Why do we need tables. Showjumping can test scope, there are countless other fence options. Can anyone guide me why everyone is against removing tables?
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Jimmy Wofford used to always tell me to aim for my xc courses to look like a GOOD working hunter round…now a days, I watch the top derby rounds to be my inspiration. That has NOT changed. And aim to be able to ride in a snaffle (although that is not always possible). What did he mean? He wanted our xc to have rhythm and balance. That my horse would galloping IN self BALANCE to the obstacles (this takes TRAINING)…that when we did have to slow down and adjust our stride…it was able to be done with subtle riding, lifting of my shoulders and not hands in their face…it was done where the Rhythm remained even when the stride might have shortened. It should look smooth. Some courses this is hard…but that was the ideal xc course (regardless of course design) and still my goal. And trust me…I heard it when I fell far from the mark not just from Jimmy but also my educated friends. What does that mean…that sometimes a horse/rider is NOT ready to move up…sometimes I go to starter trials with a young horses where I can pull up, circle, rebalance (sometimes I end up doing this at a recognized event)…and teach my horses it isn’t about the clock. You have to establish the rideability both at the gallop and in competitive settings…but be fine with blowing your initial competitive results for the better training of the horse. If you use a jump to back off your horse (as is not uncommon with some people)…that isn’t good enough as for most of our scopey horses, even an Advanced isn’t a big fence and they will not always read that 6’ drop on the back side. I had more than one horse I redirected to SJ as they were too bold, not tractable yet good jumpers but that lack of rideability made that horse is dangerous on xc…and those horses went on to be very successful SJ horses. It also means you school more rather than compete. Your horse has to have a partnership with the rider…they need to hold their own balance and be rideable but also NOT dependent on the rider always being accurate. It’s a balance…if you are inaccurate, you can blow a horses confidence…and that is why you work on this stuff (straightness too) from the damn start. You want a partnership…so this does mean the rider needs to be accurate but we train the horse’s eye too (sometimes this is skipped with accurate riders bringing along young horses)…you can help too much…you want you horse and rider to both develop their accuracy at a lower level. This means you seek out good training…and you educate yourself beyond your own trainers…and you look at your videos and the videos on riders doing it the best…and aim to be like them. And you be honest with yourself about your own abilities and that of your horse. Will that make the sport 100% safe…no…but it does make it safer. Was I always the safe rider…hell no…there but for the grace of god go I…I was lucky. I’d rather not someone else in this day of information have to rely on luck.
[ETA: I’m not commenting on or judging the Kat or any other rider…the above is just my own personal goal with my horses, and commenting that this type of instruction/goal is not new for eventers…good event trainers have been saying this for YEARS and still say this. This is what Jimmy and others have told me to focus on to be safe…but I also acknowledge that there is still risk. But this is what I tell parents with young eventers and my friends who still event and anyone who will listen…and don’t push to move up the levels. I may never be fit enough to ride above Prelim again…because I am honest with myself and will not allow my self to ride competitively at any level were I’m not fit and effective. But that judgement came from 40 years experience…]
I don’t think you fix this by making xc subjectively judged. I don’t think there is an easy fix. I do think that we have done a lot to change the culture of the sport but need to continue to do that work. But it does start with each of us taking responsibility for our own riding. And taking responsibility to educate ourselves…and do what we can to educate those around us. Grab that back yard eventer kid and take them to audit a good clinic. Jump judge with them and share your knowledge.
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@bornfreenowexpensive I wish I could like your post 1million times, not just once!! That’s exactly what I was trying to convey!
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Maybe I am off base here, but maybe some of the ones who are teaching and coaching need to be looked at. We have ICP, but maybe have a qualified ICP instructor to qualify you for the level, besides the qualifying result? And if an ICP instructor has a student who is killed or seriously injured, they may need to have their qualifications reviewed? I am not sure on what it takes to get or keep an ICP level, but maybe it needs some review as well?
I believe we need a change that if you make a mistake, it is not deadly. But at the same time I think we need a culture change in the teaching and methodology of XC riding. And the change of the long format probably has hurt XC riding in the US.
Just food for thought
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I love tables. I have had thousands of good rides at tables…even with a slight miss, the modern table with ascending face, clear ground line and painted top edge tends to give a nice jump. Horses read it well, and can even bank it if necessary (like Teddy at The Fork years ago).
If you took away tables, what would you use? Open oxers? They have their own issues, with horses dropping legs in between. Hanging logs get hanging legs, too. I watched a horse have a rotational fall over a big 3ft log at KHP many years ago. If you want a nice, big solid (looking) fence to ride at, appropriate for level, that’s where you put a table.
On the last prelim course at RH, about half of the 20 numbered fences were tables (or houses, or similar). There were a couple rolltops, an open oxer, a bench, drops and skinnies. But otherwise, tables. Rocking Horse, and FHP, too, do a great job painting their jumps to make ground lines and top edges very contrasting.
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Bornfreenow expensive, me, too. MVP also made some very good points. I watched a training video of Louise Serio, who rides very well (and yes, it was a hunter training video) some time ago. The horse made a mistake and Louise simply said “I need to ride better”. If Louise Serio can say that…She went back through the exercise and corrected it.
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Over a decade or so ago, there was an older gentleman, Bill, who was very involved with a small local horse club and did Event. So much that he won an achievement award.
He almost fell off every time he jumped. Every time. His “trainer” would comment she could not watch his jump rounds. She would joke, “did Bill get killed?” The situation was far from funny.
This man should not have been in the ring, or have even been jumping, but he was so helpful with the club activities, nothing was ever done. Volunteers were sorely needed. He was always a board member.
He killed a horse on a cross country fence. They named the fence after that horse. It seemed to be a shruggable offense, nothing more.
He then got a made horse, which also took care of him, and earned him an eventing award. He was highly competitive and went to lots of Events. He could get through a dressage test without elimination, so he would continue to the jumping phases. He survived, but should not have been going over fences. Period.
He almost wrecked all the flipping time and he still won ribbons and an achievement award.
I could not tell you if he ultimately survived his riding career or not, I ducked out of the Eventing scene after seeing enough Bills ride to last a lifetime.
At a small local level, it is easy to see what can happen when it comes to dangerous riding and why it continues.
Bill was a volunteer asset, and that fact kept everyone’s mouth shut about his riding (except mine.) His trainer needed the money and that again was more important than safety. And finally, Events need entries to run, sometimes that adds up to a lot of Bills…
”‹”‹”‹”‹This is just another example of how things can become acceptable, when the benefits of a person outweigh the risks. Events need riders.
My condolences to those who have suffered losses to the sport. I hope things change for the better, and safety wins over ego.
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But simply because riders love them should they stay? I have seen so many bad falls and near misses at tables.
You could put anything there instead, benches, coops, oxers, combinations, add terrain to a simple fence, tiger trap, trakehner, ditch, wall, palisade, chevron, rock wall, brush jump…you get the point. Hanging logs need ground lines. Course designers are trying to trip up the horses but instead are hurting them.
For what we know, this was a table with a rolled edge and a ground line.
If half the course is tables, maybe horses become lazy or do not give them the attention they deserve because they are do abundant?
I just don’t see why we really need tables, or at least, so many of them on courses.
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Events use tables because they are portable. They can be moved to change the course, ask different questions and create something different, because (especially here in FL) the same venue has multiple events. Tiger traps, ditches, rock walls can’t be moved. They may not be jumpable from both directions. Modern events have moved away from permanent elements except in places where necessary, like water jumps, banks, mounds, etc. That’s partly what makes it difficult to prepare a horse for the level… moving portables can create a soft move up , or championship difficulty. 20yrs ago when 90% of xc courses were permanent fixtures they were predictably the same year to year. (Which isn’t a bad thing.)
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It would be interesting for an engineer to design a simulation to analyze different rider positions over solid fences. Is there a position where the rider would fall far away from the horse to avoid being crushed with a rotational fall?
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Makes total sense. Are the portables improving our sport I wonder?
I am no expert but check out landsafeequestrian.com
I listened to a podcast about it and sounds like they have done a lot of work on this.
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That’s awesome.
I was responding to the general comment[s] left by several people, particularly the one comment by a newer poster that said we should emulate HJ riders… but I have been known to be a literal person :encouragement:
I think if you want to have a good ride XC, emulate riders like MJ, who ride smoothly and in balance and in a cognizant rhythm. That is not something unique to hunters/solely contributory to hunters.
Emulate riders like MJ or Will Coleman or whoever is local that rides quietly and safely. Not riders in a different discipline riding a different course on a different horse. I think when people say that ("ride like a HJ rider), it damages the perception of our sport: we shouldn’t be riding like hunters, we should be riding like eventers… and eventers should look and ride all of the bolded in your post.
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Enough with the pronouncements that Kat had such severe holes in her training and riding that she should never have been at this level, or that her mare was killed by ego (an absolutely DISGUSTING thing to say). You see one video from a year ago, and make that assessment? You have no idea what was going through her head during or after, or what work she did to improve since then.
If you want to be taken seriously and actually make an impact, then focus on constructive discussion like improving the safety of the sport so that mistakes aren’t deadly. Or, you know, keep judging and speculating on why she died with that air of superiority, instead of actually helping anyone.
I’m out. Not going to stick around for the outcries of “I don’t care who it hurts if it helps someone”- that helps absolutely no one, and is based on absolute fiction. Good luck to you all- I hope you ride perfectly from here on out.
Thank you to those who are trying to contribute to the safety of the sport through meaningful questions and discussion.
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It doesn’t matter what discipline you are talking about: a horse that gets no freedom of her head and neck in the air has only two basic options: stop, or go faster in hopes that the momentum will carry them to the other side. This little mare was going as fast as she can because she was getting such a hand ride, and in the air, the rider had an almost fully open hip angle and her hands in the air. Of course, the faster the mare went, the flatter her jump, and the less time she had to get her knees up, leading to the dangerous hanging. You can talk about the differences between the hunter world and cross country all day, but you can’t avoid the basic realities of what happens when a horse is given such a hand ride and no meaningful release. I absolutely believe some hunter and equitation basics were missing here, even if you don’t think the hunter world is the be all and end all.
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