Another rider death

[Jealoushe]

Posting these here for those who haven’t seen it before

[URL=“https://inside.fei.org/system/files/Eventing%20Audit%20-%20Charles%20Barnett%20-%20Final%20Report%2026.07.16.pdf”]https://inside.fei.org/system/files/...2026.07.16.pdf

Executive Summary This report provides an evaluation of fence-related risk factors for horse falls related to jumping efforts during the cross country test of FEI Eventing competitions. This initial phase of the study has focused on fence related factors, whilst the next phase will incorporate horse and rider related factors. All data available for FEI events during 2008 – 2104 were included in the analysis. A multivariable regression model identified several fence related factors that independently increased or decreased the risk of horse falls. These were: ï‚· Event level - increased risk at higher levels, especially at 4* ï‚· Fence types o increased risk at square spreads, corners (unless with a solid top and open front) o upright post and rails, brushes with a ditch in front o decreased risk at ascending spreads ï‚· Frangible fences - increased risk ï‚· Landing o Increased risk with downhill landing o Decreased risk with uphill landing ï‚· Water – increased risk for fences into, out of, or within water A comparison of rotational and non- rotational falls revealed very few fence related differences. There was a slightly higher proportion of rotational falls at post and rails and palisades. Fence judges reported that riders involved in rotational falls were more likely to have approached the fence at an inappropriate speed (either too fast or too slow).

https://uknowledge.uky.edu/cgi/viewc…dschool_theses

[beowulf]

@Bending Line

It doesn’t matter what discipline you are talking about: a horse that gets no freedom of her head and neck in the air has only two basic options: stop, or go faster.

I’m not going to get into semantics but no one in this thread is arguing that a horse on XC shouldn’t have the freedom of their head, or shouldn’t be balanced and in a good rhythm and straight.

H/J does not own the cornerstone of proper riding and basics.

[leighbo009]

Quick question:
The majority of the bad falls happen at tables. Is this due to the nature of the fence, or because there are more tables on course. I am not saying that tables are or are not the issue, but currently it looks like a lot are blaming “tables” for causing issue. Is there a study of the number of falls vs how many are jumped? If half the jumps are tables, and there are 2 or less of the rest of the types of jumps, it would be more likely for an issue to happen at a table. Did I miss this information somewhere? If we did away with tables, will the same issue migrate to whatever replaces the table?

[JER]

@YEG

Enough with the pronouncements that Kat had such severe holes in her training and riding that she should never have been at this level, or that her mare was killed by ego (an absolutely DISGUSTING thing to say). You see one video from a year ago, and make that assessment? You have no idea what was going through her head during or after, or what work she did to improve since then.

And enough with your denials.

The video was from August 2019, which is six months ago and includes much of the off-season.

Everyone who rides horses should be shocked by the riding in the video. Everyone should be shocked that no one apparently intervened to save Kat from herself and her horse from her. Everyone should be shocked that she wasn’t pulled up for dangerous riding at Rebecca.

[Denali6298]

@beowulf

I’m not going to get into semantics but no one in this thread is arguing that a horse on XC shouldn’t have the freedom of their head, or shouldn’t be balanced and in a good rhythm and straight.

H/J does not own the cornerstone of proper riding and basics.

Yes but I think that poster’s main point was the horse didn’t have its head in the Rebecca Farm video. That post had zero to do with H/J vs eventing.

As difficult as the conversation is in the short time since the accident, the conversation needs to happen. We need to ask questions and riders who have public videos of themselves, blogs and whatever else need to stop getting mad when people question why things are and what went wrong. I’m also not talking about what happened to Supershorty and her blog with her mare and bitting choices.

@Jealoushe posted a question about why a fall was ruled the way it was. People freaked out and the person who blogged about it (where jealoushe got her question from) made a big deal over two blogs posts. People have got to quit taking things personally and if a lower level rider asks why, have the integrity to explain what went wrong and why instead of getting mad it’s discussed.

This sport is dangerous and we as riders need to be able to handle the criticism when we suck and/or are being dangerous.

My favorite trainer yelled at me when necessary. The first time was my first lesson with her. A flat lesson. I wasn’t really riding and she screamed for all to hear “If you wanna ride this mare…!” Oh boy did I feel embarrassed. But I got my act together and really RODE. We’ve all been complacent and over faced ourselves. We’ve thankfully come out okay. However, we shouldn’t be above getting called out on it.

Does it suck and is it embarrassing? Yes. Could it help prevent serious injury to horse and rider? Yes. I’d rather be embarrassed and feel like an ass then become another name in Jealoshe’s WTF are we doing thread.

Basically my whole point is something has got to give because small mistakes should be catastrophic. We as riders need to be better at owning the mistakes and explaining to those who ask instead of defending our friends or ourselves. We all know what we did wrong when things go south. We shouldn’t be afraid to discuss it.

[enjoytheride]

You have no idea how many people tried to intervene and were ignored. You don’t know her trainer or friends.

”‹”‹”‹I can’t speak about why she didn’t get a yellow card or if she was on the watch list.

[enjoytheride]

@JER

And enough with your denials.

The video was from August 2019, which is six months ago and includes much of the off-season.

Everyone who rides horses should be shocked by the riding in the video. Everyone should be shocked that no one apparently intervened to save Kat from herself and her horse from her. Everyone should be shocked that she wasn’t pulled up for dangerous riding at Rebecca.

Are you in her area? Do you know her trainer or friends?

If you don’t then you have no idea how many people (if any) talked to her. Assumptions about what didn’t happen don’t help.

[Denali6298]

@enjoytheride

You have no idea how many people tried to intervene and were ignored. You don’t know her trainer or friends.

”‹”‹”‹I can’t speak about why she didn’t get a yellow card or if she was on the watch list.

I was speaking about the community as a whole, not this particular rider if your post was referring to mine.

Heck that’s horses in general. People don’t like to talk about failures and how they could have done better in general. People don’t like to be the example. However, if small mistakes at the UL are going to result in catastrophic injury or death to horse and rider, we gotta get better at having those conversations.

I’m not trying to die at work nor am I trying to die riding my horse. I am a big proponent of having real life examples.

A work example, we had over the top training, less tolerance for mistakes and quicker punishment for being less than perfect on the flight deck for a while. It sucked. Pretty sure everyone was kicked off and got chewed out at least once. This happened because this one time someone wasn’t paying attention and didn’t move fast enough. A jet launched from the carrier and took a guy’s head with it. The jet came back with this person’s head still attached to the station. You bet that person was made an example of. You bet his friends and all who knew him out on that ship were grieving. Didn’t stop the conversation. The conversation happened anyway because in hindsight, so much could have been done before that incident.

Eventing to me now equates to working the flight deck in terms of danger. The only difference is the culture of safety. I don’t want to move up the levels any more. I’m not even sure I want my horse to. Not because of eventing itself, but because the culture of safety isn’t there at a level that makes me comfortable.

[TMares]

What we see in that 6 month old video is a horse running off repeatedly and barely scrambling over fences with her rider of several years. I doubt there were significant changes since Rebecca. Sadly the awful proof is in the pudding.

[enjoytheride]

@Denali6298

I was speaking about the community as a whole, not this particular rider if your post was referring to mine.

Heck that’s horses in general. People don’t like to talk about failures and how they could have done better in general. People don’t like to be the example. However, if small mistakes at the UL are going to result in catastrophic injury or death to horse and rider, we gotta get better at having those conversations.

I wasn’t. It just frustrating to me that people blame the trainer, the friends for not talking to this gal. Maybe they did and she ignored them. You don’t need a trainer to sign off on a level. I’d hate for them to be reading this having spoken to her and been ignored and to now hear this abuse.

Not everyone has a good trainer, but a bad rider doesn’t mean a bad trainer. Lord knows I embarrass my trainer.

A friend of mine died in a fall and people said all sorts of things and they had no idea what her and I had talked about or not. They didn’t even ask. They were just upset and looking to cast blame.

[Jealoushe]

@enjoytheride

I wasn’t. It just frustrating to me that people blame the trainer, the friends for not talking to this gal. Maybe they did and she ignored them. You don’t need a trainer to sign off on a level. I’d hate for them to be reading this having spoken to her and been ignored and to now hear this abuse.

Not everyone has a good trainer, but a bad rider doesn’t mean a bad trainer. Lord knows I embarrass my trainer.

A friend of mine died in a fall and people said all sorts of things and they had no idea what her and I had talked about or not. They didn’t even ask. They were just upset and looking to fast blame.

So did you give advice that was ignored or?

[NaturallyHappy]

Beowulf, I’m not sure who you are referring to. I’m actually not a greenie-I’ve been on the forums a long time and managed to screw up my original screen name. If I’m the person your post was directed toward, I’m not saying the H/J world is the end all, be all. There is plenty of poor riding in those disciplines, too. The fences are more forgiving so mistakes usually aren’t as heart wrenching. I’ve had the opportunity to ride w folks like the late Tim Grubb (I’m older) and Jimmy Wofford. I think they emphasized similar things.

[JER]

@enjoytheride

You have no idea how many people tried to intervene and were ignored. You don’t know her trainer or friends.

”‹”‹”‹I can’t speak about why she didn’t get a yellow card or if she was on the watch list.

You’re absolutely right. I have no idea who might have tried to help her.

But I know the outcome - Kat’s and Kerry’s deaths - and it’s unacceptable to me.

I’m not sure what your point is here in returning to this thread except to kick sh*t at people. Now you sound like you’re speaking in support of ignoring a rider who is clearly in a dangerous place. WTF?

[Denali6298]

@enjoytheride

I wasn’t. It just frustrating to me that people blame the trainer, the friends for not talking to this gal. Maybe they did and she ignored them. You don’t need a trainer to sign off on a level. I’d hate for them to be reading this having spoken to her and been ignored and to now hear this abuse.

Not everyone has a good trainer, but a bad rider doesn’t mean a bad trainer. Lord knows I embarrass my trainer.

A friend of mine died in a fall and people said all sorts of things and they had no idea what her and I had talked about or not. They didn’t even ask. They were just upset and looking to cast blame.

From my low level opinion I think the TDs at Rebecca failed this rider for not issuing a yellow card. There should be no grey area with that. It is or it isn’t. I think with how technical the courses have gotten the blame for the repeated out cry for safety is with TPTB.

The safety culture HAS to change. I’ve been hospitalized by a horse accident and I was riding way before I should have. However, I don’t wear that as a badge of grit or toughness. I realize what I did wrong and I do better. Anyone who asks me about it, the first thing out of my mouth is, “well I was being complacent and an idiot…”. I don’t hide what I did wrong. I don’t hide that my failure by being complacent almost cost me my job.

Not every death of a rider or horse can be blamed on <insert something here>. However, this pair? It’s very different and it’s very different from our very much missed CoTHer. That’s why you see the comments you do. Things will always happen. At the walk, CKD, our own beloved CoTHer, your friend. This though? It’s different.

I am truly sorry about your friend, but sometimes, it’s more than just the wrong decision at the wrong time. And that speaks to why we allow TPTB to create courses where a small mistake results in luck or catastrophe

[enjoytheride]

@JER

You’re absolutely right. I have no idea who might have tried to help her.

But I know the outcome - Kat’s and Kerry’s deaths - and it’s unacceptable to me.

I’m not sure what your point is here in returning to this thread except to kick sh*t at people. Now you sound like you’re speaking in support of ignoring a rider who is clearly in a dangerous place. WTF?

You know damn well I’m not supporting ignoring a rider who’s a danger. You are out of line.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

@punchy

I read this recent peice in the NYT about how/why seasoned, experienced back country skiing veterans make mistakes at the time resulting in avalanche deaths that, in hindsight, they should have never made. When I read it I thought of eventers. The peice talks about psychological factors that come into play that are very human. Including being lulled into a feeling that something is ok because all these other seasoned veterans are doing it. There is an older article about this issue that was a really great read too, but I can’t figure out how to post them both. I don’t mean to hijack this thread to skiing but it’s so similar. I think it’s time to start thinking of eventing as an extreme sport and people constantly needing to question what they are doing and whether they feel something is safe. You walk a course and have doubts about a fence? Scratch. You ship for a schooling day and the place is a madhouse? Leave. You can’t control your horse but your trainer assures you it’s normal? Disagree.

These are hard things to do, though, especially when we see Phillip Dutton carooming around on Z and they get picked for the olympics.

Just wanted to say thanks. That NYT article was very well done. FWIW…I’ve always considered eventing an Extreme sport. In fact I describe it to non-horse friends as the first extreme sport. And it is similar to skiing in many ways…you will never make downhill skiing 100% safe either.

At the lower levels (below training level) though…no, I don’t think it is an extreme sport. Those levels are more gateway drugs…give a bit of Adrenaline but danger level is just the normal dangers of riding a 1000 lbs animal with a mind of its own. But once you get to Prelim and above…its a speed sport and most definitely an extreme sport. Honestly…that was what attracted me to it in the first place. And it is why I don’t encourage everyone to move up the levels.

[hey101]

@anon69112984

Thisvideo really should be called: watch how the log ground line causes a fall at a MIM-table. I am not jumping on you but I am horrified they actually use this video to prove how great the MIM-tables are when you can see how the horse gets stuck in the ground line.

I agree with this but would add a nuance- look how flat and fast the rider came into this jump; you can see from a mile away the horse is either going to get there long and have a flyer or have to put down a half stride and crash through it. I AGREE frangible technology most likely saved another catastrophic accident in this case, but why isn’t the discussion around the rider coming in with more balance, and adjustments to the stride further out to produce a competent jumping effort.

[Arelle]

FWIW, the rider has videos on her Instagram as recently as January 15th that look virtually the same as the six month old video.

No one is blaming her or the horse, or saying she deserved any of it. I don’t even really read many responses as armchair quarterbacking. I see a lot of people upset at the trend of XC riders and horses dying and wondering what we can do. If she can be the example of what not to do, then maybe it will save others. It’s not the type of legacy anyone intends to leave behind, but we cannot quit living in this rainbows and fairies lifestyle and cancel culture where any negative criticism is immediately dismissed.

It’s obvious that this woman loved the sport and loved her horse very, very much. But that doesn’t change that the system failed her and perhaps she failed herself and her horse. People speaking out and speaking up without being dismissed as rude or uncouth seems like the quickest way to make a meaningful change. We collectively need to be better at accepting negative criticism and understand that, even if it’s delivered poorly, there may be a nugget of truth that can lead to bettering ourselves - which is what this whole damn journey is about anyway.

[mvp]

@YEG

Enough with the pronouncements that Kat had such severe holes in her training and riding that she should never have been at this level, or that her mare was killed by ego (an absolutely DISGUSTING thing to say). You see one video from a year ago, and make that assessment? You have no idea what was going through her head during or after, or what work she did to improve since then.

If you want to be taken seriously and actually make an impact, then focus on constructive discussion like improving the safety of the sport so that mistakes aren’t deadly. Or, you know, keep judging and speculating on why she died with that air of superiority, instead of actually helping anyone.

I’m out. Not going to stick around for the outcries of “I don’t care who it hurts if it helps someone”- that helps absolutely no one, and is based on absolute fiction. Good luck to you all- I hope you ride perfectly from here on out.

Thank you to those who are trying to contribute to the safety of the sport through meaningful questions and discussion.

Ok, but no one said Kerry On was killed “for ego.” That “for ego” comment referred to a mustang jumping really badly (IMO) in another video.

[RAyers]

@enjoytheride

I wasn’t. It just frustrating to me that people blame the trainer, the friends for not talking to this gal. Maybe they did and she ignored them. You don’t need a trainer to sign off on a level. I’d hate for them to be reading this having spoken to her and been ignored and to now hear this abuse.

Not everyone has a good trainer, but a bad rider doesn’t mean a bad trainer. Lord knows I embarrass my trainer.

A friend of mine died in a fall and people said all sorts of things and they had no idea what her and I had talked about or not. They didn’t even ask. They were just upset and looking to cast blame.

You finally admit the possibility that this rider may have made a choice that resulted in their demise. That is what is being said all along. No, we don’t know. What we do know shows holes in training and skill at a lower level. When taken with this incident, rider error becomes a likely cause.

Now this idea brings into focus the failures of the system where the ride could have been guided to increase their foundations and capabilities. A yellow card could have been a great eye opener.

To others who talk about equitation etc on course and having a “judged” system, we already have the CO Technical Merit Award. I won the national award 5 years ago. It is a good idea and is one that does not make equitation a “be all and end all” goal on xc.