Another rider death

[Jealoushe]

@Arelle yes, actually all of her videos on her instagram make me seriously wonder how anyone never said anything, officials, friends, coaches??? Why?? It does not take an experienced UL rider to see that combination was headed for injury, it was just a matter of time.

[Denali6298]

@Arelle

FWIW, the rider has videos on her Instagram as recently as January 15th that look virtually the same as the six month old video.

No one is blaming her or the horse, or saying she deserved any of it. I don’t even really read many responses as armchair quarterbacking. I see a lot of people upset at the trend of XC riders and horses dying and wondering what we can do. If she can be the example of what not to do, then maybe it will save others. It’s not the type of legacy anyone intends to leave behind, but we cannot quit living in this rainbows and fairies lifestyle and cancel culture where any negative criticism is immediately dismissed.

It’s obvious that this woman loved the sport and loved her horse very, very much. But that doesn’t change that the system failed her and perhaps she failed herself and her horse. People speaking out and speaking up without being dismissed as rude or uncouth seems like the quickest way to make a meaningful change. We collectively need to be better at accepting negative criticism and understand that, even if it’s delivered poorly, there may be a nugget of truth that can lead to bettering ourselves - which is what this whole damn journey is about anyway.

This! We all have ego. We all need to be sat down a time or two.

[JER]

As for blaming the trainer…

The trainers that I’ve ridden with would have asked me to leave their barn if I insisted on bringing a horse up the levels that wasn’t straight. They would have told me flat out that they’d seen enough people die already and the way I was riding was going to get me killed.

Of course I don’t know what the real story is in this case but I know my experiences have been very, very different.

I’ve also seen my share of low-quality trainers. Sometimes they have poor fundamentals themselves and pass those on to their students. This is just like in any other sport - except mistakes can have deadly consequences in eventing.

[enjoytheride]

@RAyers

You finally admit the possibility that this rider may have made a choice that resulted in their demise. That is what is being said all along. No, we don’t know. What we do know shows holes in training and skill at a lower level. When taken with this incident, rider error becomes a likely cause.

Now this idea brings into focus the failures of the system where the ride could have been guided to increase their foundations and capabilities. A yellow card could have been a great eye opener.

To others who talk about equitation etc on course and having a “judged” system, we already have the CO Technical Merit Award. I won the national award 5 years ago. It is a good idea and is one that males equitation a “be all and end all” goal on xc.

I’ve never said the rider’s actions weren’t to blame. I think a lot of things failed this rider. What I’ve said is it isn’t fair to assume that nobody tried to talk sense into her. We don’t need our trainer’s signature to enter a level.

I would have thought she would have earned a yellow card, or at least a spot on the watchlist. I would love to know why she didn’t and what we can do about that.

[Denali6298]

@enjoytheride

I’ve never said the rider’s actions weren’t to blame. I think a lot of things failed this rider. What I’ve said is it isn’t fair to assume that nobody tried to talk sense into her. We don’t need our trainer’s signature to enter a level.

I would have thought she would have earned a yellow card, or at least a spot on the watchlist. I would love to know why she didn’t and what we can do about that.

To be fair you criticized those who did blame the rider. I know if I rode like that my trainer would put me back to BN. I don’t know if y’all read Camilla Mortenson’s blogs on CoTH but she’s got a fiery horse. Cairo is a handful. Her prelim at Rebecca looked incredibly smoother. I also wanna say it was attempt number one or two. Regardless, it certainly wasn’t someone looking to move up in six months.

Camilla if your reading this I’m sorry but you and Cairo are what we all should strive to be.

[TMares]

@JER

As for blaming the trainer…

The trainers that I’ve ridden with would have asked me to leave their barn if I insisted on bringing a horse up the levels that wasn’t straight. They would have told me flat out that they’d seen enough people die already and the way I was riding was going to get me killed.

Of course I don’t know what the real story is in this case but I know my experiences have been very, very different.

I’ve also seen my share of low-quality trainers. Sometimes they have poor fundamentals themselves and pass those on to their students. This is just like in any other sport - except mistakes can have deadly consequences in eventing.

As a former GMO president, we had precious little success even scheduling cross country clinics because trainers didn’t want to risk having their students poached by either another trainer or the clinician. That’s messed up.

[Marigold]

@JER

So this comes down to the one action we can all take that doesn’t cost anything. To borrow the well-worn phrase from Homeland Security, if you see something say something.

If you see someone riding dangerously, reach out to them. Ask how it’s going, tell them you saw them out there and you were a bit worried. You can do this in a friendly way and you may have a discussion of what’s going on with their riding and their horse - which all horse people like to do - and you’ll have expressed your concern in a way that might make them rethink.

Who cares if it’s a total stranger or a rider who rides at a higher level than you? It’s a human thing to say ‘How’s it going? I saw you had a bit of a hairy moment at the ditch…’ No need to be afraid to speak up if you spot a dangerous or potentially dangerous situation.

Make safety and riding concerns something that we talk to each other about as equals and without boundaries and without fear.

I agree with every single word of this. Absolutely perfectly stated, and I have had several conversations with friends over the past few days making sure they know that when it comes to me, if they see something I expect them to say something.

All anyone ( @YEG, @enjoytheride, etc) is trying to say (I think) is that it does nothing for strangers to yell at people. Approaching it as you have laid out above is likely to work, IMO – expressing genuine concern, privately and with kindness, and talking the person through exactly what you have noticed that worries you. If they don’t listen, give a head’s up to officials. All of that makes sense to me. What is unlikely to work is approaches like this:

@JER

I wish I’d posted it on here on a thread called something like ‘OMG! - How is this not dangerous riding?’

@ake987

That mare was overfaced due to ego.

[ETA: the second quote was not a comment directed by the poster at Kat and Kerry On. It is used here only as an example of a type of feedback delivered with respect to a (relative stranger) rider’s round. My post is general and is meant to discuss ways to approach riders you do not know with feedback, and thus this quote is used as one example.]

Feedback from strangers phrased like that is likely to trigger a defensive response. Research has proven that people who feel defensive actually become more entrenched in their current beliefs, and less likely to respond to the criticism. A harsh reality check from a trusted coach or friend might get through, but if we want to have an effect as a community, we need to communicate with more empathy and meet someone where they are, to help them understand where they need to be.

Emotions are so raw right now, rightly so, and everyone is passionate about making change so we don’t have this discussion again in two weeks. No one is trying to “ignore a rider who is clearly in a dangerous place”. We are trying to approach them in a way that might actually do some good, for the good of us all. The way you recommended in the first post I quoted is a perfect option.

[hey101]

I keep thinking on this. And what I keep coming back to is very few people are grievously injured in the Dressage or SJ portion in an event (FTR I evented to prelim in the last although my last event was over a decade ago- I now fox hunt, do H/J and dressage). Even in those specific disciplines, very few people sustain catastrophic injuries- Courtney king dye in dressage years ago, and Kevin babington in SJ recently come to mind, but those to me truly feel like the one-off and truly “accidents”. With eventing XC it’s over and over and over again. So “these kids today” don’t have the ability to go out regularly and “ride across the country” fox hunting whatever. SO TAKE THE TIME PENALTIES ON XC AND RIDE IT LIKE A LONG SHOW JUMP COURSE UNTIL COMPETENCY IS ACHIEVED. Until the rider horse combo has the skill/experience to step it up pace wise. If you can’t see it cantering down to a given fence how will you see it galloping down to it? There is no shame in taking 1,3,5 more Competitions to be safe and competent at the level. Especially if said person has no opportunities to go out and get that experience without a “controlled environment “ (IMHO just XC schooling is not enough because it’s 4 -6 people they jump a few fences and pull up and go to the next set- never time to get into the rhythm of the gallop and jumping out of stride.)

The times they have achanged. Riders and coaches must adjust to the new reality. They cannot count on USEA or USEF to do it for them. What’s a $0.50 cent ribbon worth versus coming home safe and happy for a few shows and carefully stepping it up?

[wildlifer]

I don’t generally post on these threads (and am so sad that word is so plural), but I think there is a lot of good, very important discussion going on here – it needs to. I send deep condolences to connections with both this rider & horse. I am too familiar with untimely grief (not that there is ever really timely grief) & no matter why it happens, it’s horrible.

I have ridden for many, many years & have been heavily involved with eventing as both a participant & a volunteer, including helping to run events. A couple of comments based on my experiences:

I have, multiple times, been the jump judge that spoke up about concerns with a horse and/or rider at the upper levels (including 3*). I think I have a pretty good eye, I am also a big safety advocate & I have enough experience that, while I haven’t ridden an Advanced course, I can recognize even on an approach when things are going south. I am naturally an introvert, but a lifetime of learning compensation skills & regretting missed opportunities has caused me to train myself to speak up when I believe it’s important to someone’s life - having someone annoyed with me will not actually hurt me in any way & I don’t care about egos or names.

All of that said, I don’t think I am the average volunteer. While calling someone in got easier for me as I got to know more officials, I can still see that it would be much harder for many other people. While I do think people should report more often, I don’t think it’s fair to have the responsibility rest solely on the jump judges without some much more intensive training/screening.

Related to this, one of the reasons I haven’t volunteered in a while is because the last time I jump judged, I put two people in the ambulance within 40 minutes on the course (can’t remember if it was A or 3*). Fortunately, horses were not injured & both riders recovered fully, but both were nasty wrecks with injuries, one pretty serious. One was at a big table where the horse came in hot & flat, I saw that one coming 15+ strides out. That was not a pleasant experience for me – I was glad that I was there because I was able to help them & help manage the situation effectively, as I also have a lot of first aid training, but one in particular, whom I feared was going to stop breathing, triggered flashbacks for me to (actual) PTSD from other catastrophic loss in my life & that lingered with me for quite a while. I don’t really want to repeat that experience & until USEA/USEF/FEI is willing to address this issue intelligently (which will take a multi-pronged approach), I’m not confident that I won’t see a repeat next time I go. I want to help people, but it is too hard for me to put myself in that situation again.

Regarding rider responsibility, this is absolutely important. However, we HAVE to find a way to do a better job of regulating those who won’t or can’t (i.e. kids) take that responsibility. If people get mad, too bad. Mad is better than dead. I realize that I was really lucky when I transitioned into eventing ~13 years ago – I’m careful by nature, but I didn’t have any technical knowledge about XC riding or training. I was fortunate enough to end up with instructors & clinicians who emphasized making sure you taught the horse to understand the questions being asked & you gave him the skills to solve the problems he might face on course. It’s about so much more than just riding over a jump, it’s about teaching your horse to be an active, thinking partner because it’s impossible for a human to react fast enough in every situation. They taught me how to be that rider who will stop mid-course if it’s not going to be a positive experience for the horse. That your horse’s confidence & well-being & understanding of his job comes first always because your life depends on it. That you always stack the deck in your favour & you never, ever, ever rely on hope & luck.

Have I made mistakes? Heck yes. And if anyone, anywhere, sees me making one, call me on it! Please! throw a rock at me (just don’t hit my horse, wasn’t his fault he got stuck with me), whatever. That’s how I learn. Even if it’s not what I want to hear at the time, I still take it in & I am always grateful someone cared enough to pay attention. I do have a blog & I have always tried from the beginning to share a complete, honest picture both so others can learn & to show that it’s ok to be human, you’re not alone in being imperfect – this includes the mistakes, the wrong decisions, what I need to improve, as well as soliciting constructive input from outside eyes. I don’t see a value in constructing an imaginary, perfect, online life.

Now I know enough to only seek out people who teach this way I was taught, but I didn’t then & many others don’t & there’s not an easy way to identify those teachers. It SHOULD be what we all are taught, but it isn’t. I do think there is A LOT of room for USEA to provide way, way more educational resources & opportunities about this in a comprehensive way & emphasizing & rewarding this approach in their messaging. And messaging includes incident investigations mentioned many times by others – we do this in my agency (I’m a biologist) & every incident form gets sent to every employee in the state. Names are blacked out, but it includes “what should have been done differently & how can this be avoided in the future.” Even minor ones contain good reminders for all of us.

Lastly in this treatise (sorry), on the issue of funding for better course design/construction, frankly this excuse just makes me mad. Having learned how much is spent on carving/making all these jump decorations/building intricate things, all of that money spent on that unneccessary stuff (& all the other “fluff”, particularly around ever-expanding destination events) could be & should be redirected towards identifying & making meaningful improvements so people & horses don’t die when they make a mistake at a horse show. Until the organization clearly demonstrates to me that they recognize this is a serious priority & they take meaningful action about it, I have a hard time coming up with a reason to renew my membership to be a part of said organization.

[Jealoushe]

@wildlifer

Lastly in this treatise (sorry), on the issue of funding for better course design/construction, frankly this excuse just makes me mad. Having learned how much is spent on carving/making all these jump decorations/building intricate things, all of that money spent on that unneccessary stuff (& all the other “fluff”, particularly around ever-expanding destination events) could be & should be redirected towards identifying & making meaningful improvements so people & horses don’t die when they make a mistake at a horse show. Until the organization clearly demonstrates to me that they recognize this is a serious priority & they take meaningful action about it, I have a hard time coming up with a reason to renew my membership to be a part of said organization.

good point, why are riders funding the frangible fences when they pay insane amounts for fancy jumps and decorations? Something not right there.

[ake987]

@Marigold

I agree with every single word of this. Absolutely perfectly stated, and I have had several conversations with friends over the past few days making sure they know that when it comes to my, if they see something I expect them to say something.

All anyone ( @YEG, @enjoytheride, etc) is trying to say (I think) is that it does nothing for strangers to yell at people. Approaching it as you have laid out above is likely to work, IMO – expressing genuine concern, privately and with kindness, and talking the person through exactly what you have noticed that worries you. If they don’t listen, give a head’s up to officials. All of that makes sense to me. What is unlikely to work is approaches like this:

Feedback from strangers phrased like that is likely to trigger a defensive response. Research has proven that people who feel defensive actually become more entrenched in their current beliefs, and less likely to respond to the criticism. A harsh reality check from a trusted coach or friend might get through, but if we want to have an effect as a community, we need to communicate with more empathy and meet someone where they are, to help them understand where they need to be.

Emotions are so raw right now, rightly so, and everyone is passionate about making change so we don’t have this discussion again in two weeks. No one is trying to “ignore a rider who is clearly in a dangerous place”. We are trying to approach them in a way that might actually do some good, for the good of us all. The way you recommended in the first post I quoted is a perfect option.

Do people read for comprehension here? My comment about ego had nothing to do with Kat/Kerry. I was replying to a question about Elisa Wallace and Hwin. I’d appreciate if you edit your post to remove my comment as substantiation for your point.

[skydy]

Having read all of the opinions on this thread so far, I can only believe that the onus is now on the officials. If riders are pulled off course by the officials, their trainers will have to step up and help the rider correct the problem.

I remember Elisa Wallace’s ride at Badminton. The horse was done, anyone could see that several fences out and if I could see it, watching online, the officials must have seen it as well. Yet they waited until the horse fell to give her a yellow card. I can’t think of any good reason for them to have waited. Horse and rider were not injured, but that was luck, wasn’t it.

Obviously people will enter levels that they and/or their horse are not prepared for. It’s unfortunate but there it is. Officials can discourage this. It has to start with them.
It’s time for them to get serious about it.

[Denali6298]

My personal feeling, frangible pins allows riders to take more risks and allow course designers to take more risks. It was done with safety in mind but had unintended consequences.

[LadyB]

Those same officials allow blood in the horses mouth, not much to rely on there these days.

[Hunter_s_Rest]

Dumb point, perhaps, but has there been a study/discussion about the ‘new-fashioned’ saddles with deep seats and big knee blocks and huge thigh blocks and how they surely stick you in a nice position in the saddle but don’t exactly let you get catapulted in the case of ^^^ …
I’ve often wondered but haven’t been on your eventing forum enough to notice if this has been discussed, dissected and discarded as a theory.

[skydy]

@LadyB

Those same officials allow blood in the horses mouth, not much to rely on there these days.

I know, and it’s past time for that to change.

[Denali6298]

@LadyB

Those same officials allow blood in the horses mouth, not much to rely on there these days.

We need to move to a black and white policy. Blood your eliminated. If it looks like a yellow card issue it. Save people from themselves and save horses from people.

[JER]

@Denali6298

We need to move to a black and white policy. Blood your eliminated.

Add to that:

Riding off course, you’re eliminated and given a yellow card.

[Denali6298]

@JER

Add to that:

Riding off course, you’re eliminated and given a yellow card.

Exactly

[omare]

Please explain for the non-expert me why do people state that event horses need physically solid fences XC because otherwise they will learn that they can knock them down?