Another rider death

[fanfayre]

@beowulf: I wish I rode anywhere near as well as MJ, but yes, I agree with you! We were obviously discussing semantics, not context

[Puffergrrl]

@JER

Ok so Kat Morel had a regular coach and was in FL with her training group/barn.

Everyone here - or very nearly almost everyone here - who has seen the videos agrees on at least one thing: that the horse was not straight. Didn’t watch it. Not for me to decide what happened in her tragic accident. Should be left to professional investigators to research & report.

How is it that a rider who rides regularly - for years - with a coach who has UL experience can get away with riding a horse this way not to mention moving up the levels? This boils down to “she had it coming”…which isn’t linguistically a far cry from “she deserved it.” For those on here that keep maintaining no one is saying that.

How is it that the coach didn’t teach her the importance of straightness, apparently at any point in the years that the rider was competing this horse? You are neither the rider, trainer, or horse, so your opinion on the importance of straightness and how straight they needed to be to perform well doesn’t really matter. Nor do you know if that played any role in the incident.

I don’t know the coach. I realize that Kat Morel was an adult and could make her own decisions so it’s possible that she’d resisted any attempts to - literally - straighten her out. It’s a big assumption to make that the rider was ignoring instructions from a trainer, intentionally being crooked, or that this is what caused the accident. (Note the word ACCIDENT. As in, she didn’t “have it coming”). But it’s also very possible that the coach doesn’t reinforce the basics and is fine with her students moving up whenever they scrape through the requirements. If that’s the case, this coach wouldn’t be unique, IME. Another assumption about the quality of a trainer you don’t know and making a sweeping generalization about the lack of education/quality of trainers in general.

I’ve been haunted by the Rebecca video. And also the Red Hills video where she leave the start box crooked and it goes from there. Seriously.

I wish I’d discovered the Rebecca video last week or last month or last year. I wish I’d posted it on here on a thread called something like ‘OMG! - How is this not dangerous riding?’ (Which I have done with videos in the past.) And this is how you make friends I know I would have been raked over the coals by some BB members saying it’s not my business or I was hurting someone’s feelings or I have no idea what I’m talking about. It’s not about hurting feelings. It’s about the statement in red. You typed it, not me. Even after you say it’s true ;)All of that might be true but none of it’s as bad as Kat and Kerry getting killed on XC.

And you know what? It might have got back to the rider and she might have seen all the fuss and Now you’re just flattering yourself- who knows? - maybe someone who cared about her would have got through to her.

So this comes down to the one action we can all take that doesn’t cost anything. To borrow the well-worn phrase from Homeland Security, if you see something say something. Equating your thoughts on telling a rider you don’t know that they’re riding poorly to the importance of reporting potential acts of terrorism seems flawed.

If you see someone riding dangerously, reach out to them. Ask how it’s going, tell them you saw them out there and you were a bit worried. You can do this in a friendly way and you may have a discussion of what’s going on with their riding and their horse - which all horse people like to do Are you f*cking kidding?! A random person walking up to you at a show and asking you how you’re doing and then telling you they’re worried about your riding, but BTW your horse has a really pretty tail?! - and you’ll have expressed your concern in a way that might make them rethink. If I know anyone that knows you, I’d rethink interacting with them anymore.

Who cares if it’s a total stranger or a rider who rides at a higher level than you? Ummm…I’m not going to explain this one again. It’s a human thing to say ‘How’s it going? I saw you had a bit of a hairy moment at the ditch…’ No need to be afraid to speak up if you spot a dangerous or potentially dangerous situation. People pay good money for a trainer to do this. It sounds like eventing has some challenges with officials and supervision, but at a H/J show, I’d report anything concerning to the steward, the show management, or make sure the judge or in-gate person knew about it.

Make safety and riding concerns something that we talk to each other about as equals and without boundaries and without fear. Make it a priority, yes.

God, I missed you guys! I can’t help but think you missed me too. I assumed the sky would be falling on my Chickens Little after the tragic event this weekend. (Of course, to assume makes an ass out of you and Uma Thurman).

FIRSTLY, as snarky as I love to be…sincere condolences to Katherine’s family, friends, and all those that cared for and loved her horse as well.

Next…JER…she’s dead. She won’t benefit from your brilliant coaching and her trainer is probably a little busy mourning to scour internet forums for tips on how to not get students killed on course. Plus, it’s unspoken horseman’s policy to let them get the body in the ground before you start handing out advice on how the situation should have been handled.

[ake987]

@Puffergrrl [edit]. This is a discussion forum. In case that doesn’t give it away or you’re not good with context clues, that means discussions take place here. You don’t get to police them.

[awesomenessity]

@JER

Ok so Kat Morel had a regular coach and was in FL with her training group/barn.

Everyone here - or very nearly almost everyone here - who has seen the videos agrees on at least one thing: that the horse was not straight.

How is it that a rider who rides regularly - for years - with a coach who has UL experience can get away with riding a horse this way not to mention moving up the levels?

How is it that the coach didn’t teach her the importance of straightness, apparently at any point in the years that the rider was competing this horse?

I don’t know the coach. I realize that Kat Morel was an adult and could make her own decisions so it’s possible that she’d resisted any attempts to - literally - straighten her out. But it’s also very possible that the coach doesn’t reinforce the basics and is fine with her students moving up whenever they scrape through the requirements. If that’s the case, this coach wouldn’t be unique, IME.

I’ve been haunted by the Rebecca video. And also the Red Hills video where she leave the start box crooked and it goes from there. Seriously.

I wish I’d discovered the Rebecca video last week or last month or last year. I wish I’d posted it on here on a thread called something like ‘OMG! - How is this not dangerous riding?’ (Which I have done with videos in the past.) I know I would have been raked over the coals by some BB members saying it’s not my business or I was hurting someone’s feelings or I have no idea what I’m talking about. All of that might be true but none of it’s as bad as Kat and Kerry getting killed on XC.

And you know what? It might have got back to the rider and she might have seen all the fuss and - who knows? - maybe someone who cared about her would have got through to her.

So this comes down to the one action we can all take that doesn’t cost anything. To borrow the well-worn phrase from Homeland Security, if you see something say something.

If you see someone riding dangerously, reach out to them. Ask how it’s going, tell them you saw them out there and you were a bit worried. You can do this in a friendly way and you may have a discussion of what’s going on with their riding and their horse - which all horse people like to do - and you’ll have expressed your concern in a way that might make them rethink.

Who cares if it’s a total stranger or a rider who rides at a higher level than you? It’s a human thing to say ‘How’s it going? I saw you had a bit of a hairy moment at the ditch…’ No need to be afraid to speak up if you spot a dangerous or potentially dangerous situation.

Make safety and riding concerns something that we talk to each other about as equals and without boundaries and without fear.

Haven’t read the remaining posts (still catching up!), but I know Kat’s trainer rather tangentially, and she has not impressed me with her riding or training. I follow their Facebook page and there have been some truly terrifying riding videos posted by the trainer in the last year or so.

At one point I was thinking of moving my jumper to that farm, and did an on-farm clinic with primarily students of that trainer. Clinician was great, but the students I saw riding were scary… one guy had to spend 30 minutes with the clinician learning how to sit the canter. Still slammed onto his horse’s back every stride. I believe he was trying to move up to Pre-Training that year. This was like, 10 years ago. So I think your assessment of the trainer not reinforcing the basics has been true for a very, very long time.

[RAyers]

@omare

Please explain for the non-expert me why do people state that event horses need physically solid fences XC because otherwise they will learn that they can knock them down?

Coming from a h/j background but we had a 100 acre xc course in the 1970s/80s.

1. the solid fence has always been part of the history. They were objects that existed in the battlefield and across the country that needed to be negotiated by the military.

2. in the modern form, originally the solid fences were meant to be jumped upon or jumped over (depending on the horse). They were safe simply because how the horse and rider were to clear them was never a question. Tables could be banks.

Back then terrain was created the questions. The fences didn’t have to be big because the terrain made the difficulty.

3. some of the solid fences are much more safe than stadium. Things such as logs and roll tops can act as brakes on horses to slow them
   down and prevent rotations on steep and uneven terrain.

4. given today’s xc which no longer reflects xc of even 15 years ago, we probably could do with removing solid fences and just building stadium courses in fields.

in the past the solid fences were integrated into the terrain and thus on had to know how to navigate both at the same time, e.g. roll top in the middle of a steep downhill, fences that were integrated into ditches where the takeoff fell away. Each type of fence required a rider and horse to both be smart and attentive to the question.

Now xc has become stadium jumping in a groomed field where the questions really are more related to any FEI jumper course than the terrain

[Puffergrrl]

@ake987

@Puffergrrl Quit your bullshit. This is a discussion forum. In case that doesn’t give it away or you’re not good with context clues, that means discussions take place here. You don’t get to police them.

How am I ever going to practice using context clues if you just give me the definition like that?

According to the Cambridge Dictionary: Discussion Forum
A place on the internet where people can leave messages or discuss particular subjects with other people at the same time.

…it doesn’t say anything about offering unsolicited riding advice to the dead.
I have the utmost respect for those on here to express condolences, share sadness or even fear, and wanting to explore new possibilities to make the sport safer, so that we can continue to enjoy it.

[YEG]

@Marigold ke987;n10590139]

Do people read for comprehension here? My comment about ego had nothing to do with Kat/Kerry. I was replying to a question about Elisa Wallace and Hwin. I’d appreciate if you edit your post to remove my comment as substantiation for your point.[/QUOTE]

I misread it. My apologies. I do read for comprehension and sometimes make mistakes- no need for the nastiness, though it does prove the point doesn’t it.

@ Marigold thank you for your post: that’s what I was going for, definitely.

[ake987]

@YEG

I misread it. My apologies. I do read for comprehension and sometimes make mistakes- no need for the nastiness, though it does prove the point doesn’t it.

No, I don’t think it does. If you are going to put someone on blast for their words being “absolutely DISGUSTING” you better be sure you know what that person meant and have the correct context.

[YEG]

@ake987

Do people read for comprehension here? My comment about ego had nothing to do with Kat/Kerry. I was replying to a question about Elisa Wallace and Hwin. I’d appreciate if you edit your post to remove my comment as substantiation for your point.

I misread it. My apologies. I do read for comprehension and sometimes make mistakes- no need for the nastiness, though it does prove the point doesn’t it.

@Marigold thank you for your post: that’s what I was going for, definitely.

[YEG]

@ake987

No, I don’t think it does. If you are going to put someone on blast for their words being “absolutely DISGUSTING” you better be sure you know what that person meant and have the correct context.

I could have used many other examples, and did use another in the same sentence. I didn’t name you. It was a misunderstanding on my part of what you meant. You said “that mare” and I honestly thought you were referring to Kerry On. Even looking back at your post I think it could be misinterpreted. Certainly it was by me.

[RAyers]

@Puffergrrl

How am I ever going to practice using context clues if you just give me the definition like that?

According to the Cambridge Dictionary: Discussion Forum
A place on the internet where people can leave messages or discuss particular subjects with other people at the same time.

…it doesn’t say anything about offering unsolicited riding advice to the dead.
I have the utmost respect for those on here to express condolences, share sadness or even fear, and wanting to explore new possibilities to make the sport safer, so that we can continue to enjoy it.

Well, part of that exploration is to consider that the rider was at fault. As I’ve stated here, when I investigate an incident where a person was killed or maimed, I don’t just look at the I inanimate. I must consider and investigate the participants as well.

Videos of past performances as well as public competition records all are evidence to the facts.

[AnastasiaBeaverhousen]

1. What is considered Dangerous Riding? Are there guidelines in the rule book or is it up to the TD to decide?

2. Would this be possible/ feasible?

Before moving up to the next level a rider must demonstrate proficiency in a set of written directives.
Similar to a dressage test.
It wouldn’t have to be on a full xc course. A subset of the questions that the rider would see on the next level.
The rider would be judged by JJ at each question and then the rider would be given approval to move up and if not some kind of report in writing why they should not move up and where they need to improve.
The ride could be videoed so the judges could how well the rider can rate the horse and what kind of control the rider has.

I dont know if this would be feasible but it seems to me it would be an excellent way for riders to get feedback from disinterested observers.

Maybe it could be done regionally at certain times of the year and give riders a chance to school courses they may not otherwise get to.

My condolences to Katherine’s family and friends.

[Gnep]

@RAyers

Coming from a h/j background but we had a 100 acre xc course in the 1970s/80s.

1. the solid fence has always been part of the history. They were objects that existed in the battlefield and across the country that needed to be negotiated by the military.

2. in the modern form, originally the solid fences were meant to be jumped upon or jumped over (depending on the horse). They were safe simply because how the horse and rider were to clear them was never a question. Tables could be banks.

3. some of the solid fences are much more safe than stadium. Things such as logs and roll tops can act as brakes on horses to slow them
   down and prevent rotations on steep and uneven terrain.

4. given today’s xc which no longer reflects xc of even 15 years ago, we probably could do with removing solid fences and just building stadium courses in fields.

Well you ugly old bastard, am still kicking. Got 5 pasture ornaments, one was a eventer Cerveza, Wild Fire kicked the bucket last spring, have 3 dogs, 2 pigs and naturally my Bier and my youthful outstanding looks, as you know.

It is rather mute to talk about the jump which killed the horse and its rider. You know as well as I do, it was not this jump which caused the crash, it is a chain of mistakes, on course, which caused it.
When I investigated those crashes I tried to get as much footage of the whole ride as possible and a little history about horse and rider. They do same basic investigation around the jump and always come to the conclusion, " horse dropped a leg " or the most famous " freak accident " and in a couple of weeks nobody talks about it.
If a airplane comes down, they investigate everything, pilots, maintenance, logs and piece the sucker together again, to find what caused it.
I did a few investigations for some folks in Europe, as you might remember.
I collected video, pictures, historical data for weeks on each of those crashes and than pieced the whole ride together, knowing what to look for and I was able to see the outcome around 4 to 5 jumps before it happened.

Remember that girl who killed her horse at that keyhole jump at Rolex, rotational, broken neck. Everybody tore into her, because she had a big mouth and liked to brag how fast she could ride and that she killed her horse because she was to fast.
The key to the crash was the horses history, it just did not like keyholes. It was a very measured approach, the little ditch and than the keyhole on a small rise. You had to gallop into the bottom of the ditch and than up to the jump, if the horse would gallop from bank to bank, it would get unbalanced and the next stride to take of would not just unbalanced but very short…
The approach was close to 500, very balanced, even strides, rider sitting perfectly upright, good leg position, school book, horses head in perfect position, but than when she reached the top of that little ditch thingy, she took her lower legs backwards and dug her spur in and the horse extended its stride, did not gallop into the ditch but into the other side, unbalanced, very short stride and dead meat. If that little ditch thingy would not have been there, the Samurai would have cleared the Jump.
I think I remember the horses name right.
As you see my photographic memory is still rather good.
I have thrown all the stuff, notes videos of the crashes I look at away. But that gray glibber , those 2 or 3 cells, which allow me to open a Bier and not pee in my Bier, have it still all registered.

Are you still blowing things up ?

[RAyers]

@Puffergrrl

How am I ever going to practice using context clues if you just give me the definition like that?

…it doesn’t say anything about offering unsolicited riding advice to the dead.
I have the utmost respect for those on here to express condolences, share sadness or even fear, and wanting to explore new possibilities to make the sport safer, so that we can continue to enjoy it.

And what if the possibilities must include a critical examination of the victim and their past performance?

Inanimate fixes can only go so far. Now the culture has to change. XC is not what it once was even 10 years ago. Time to now get into the short hairs and really examine the system. This includes having people who have experience in these investigations commenting.

[hb]

@Gnep

If that little ditch thingy would not have been there, the Samurai would have cleared the Jump.
I think I remember the horses name right.

Wasn’t it Frodo Baggins in that accident?

[Puffergrrl]

@RAyers

And what if the possibilities must include a critical examination of the victim and their past performance?

Inanimate fixes can only go so far. Now the culture has to change. XC is not what it once was even 10 years ago. Time to now get into the short hairs and really examine the system. This includes having people who have experience in these investigations commenting.

I certainly would not discount that as a reasonable idea. I definitely think there is value to having experts review video of the accident (assuming there is any), medical/vet records, and the scene privately. I wouldn’t rule out letting them watch previous event or training video if they thought that would be helpful in their discovery.

Then it would be good to have some sort of report made. Perhaps something along the lines of how the coroner’s office handles high profile autopsies? Providing detailed information to inner circles so they can make changes and giving some information to the public, but keeping things respectful for the family. Of course, that takes a shift in current state for our regulatory bodies to be trustworthy and act on this knowledge to make things safer.

[Denali6298]

@Puffergrrl

I certainly would not discount that as a reasonable idea. I definitely think there is value to having experts review video of the accident (assuming there is any), medical/vet records, and the scene privately. I wouldn’t rule out letting them watch previous event or training video if they thought that would be helpful in their discovery.

Then it would be good to have some sort of report made. Perhaps something along the lines of how the coroner’s office handles high profile autopsies? Providing detailed information to inner circles so they can make changes and giving some information to the public, but keeping things respectful for the family.

I would advise we ignore the poster who has a longer history on Diva than here, and who also doesn’t event. But yeah this poster likes diva.

[Puffergrrl]

@Denali6298

I would advise we ignore the poster who has a longer history on Diva than here, and who also doesn’t event. But yeah this poster likes diva.

Seems like you know your way there too. You should see how often I visit (not much). But it is a good read from time to time.

I don’t think being sorry about a death and having concerns over safety and the possibility of losing an entire facet of the sport that’s already dying is restricted to eventers. We’re seeing vests more and more these days, so there is certainly opportunity for crossover in technology.

[Gestalt]

I’m really amazed at the lackadaisical attitude towards crashes and deaths in the eventing world. So many riders that are professionals in other jobs have given their ideas and experiences on investigations. From my own past when a near miss or crash/injury occurred we would (safety committee) look at the reports and determine a cause. The word ‘accident’ was never used, our department didn’t believe in accidents. There is always a root cause, sometimes multiple causes, that caused the crash. You just need to be willing to look for it.

Maybe it will take a huge lawsuit to kick the powers that be into action. I definitely see one on the horizon.

[MNEventer]

What I find so depressing is that officials have no qualms eliminating riders for a whip that’s a centimeter too long or wearing the wrong spurs. But can’t see their way to eliminating people for basically bolting around x-c just barely aiming their horse at the right fence. I think officials at events need to be encouraged to step in when someone looks like they’re having control issues.

I think I’ve told this story on this forum before, but I was jump judging a few years ago and a horse slid into my jump, putting her leg through a piece of rotten wood. The only thing the rider seemed concerned about was whether her horse had any visible cuts. I told her I couldn’t see any, and she continued on. I would have been concerned about possible splinters or damage under the boot, but she ran the rest of the Training course. The POGJ and TD took a long time to respond to my “broken jump” messages over the radio, so about 4 or 5 riders jumped the broken jump with wood pieces around it. It was a simple fix, but it felt like a serious hazard was not a priority. Very much a culture of indifference that JER alluded to at the beginning of this thread.

How do we fix this? How do we get people to err on the side of caution and make horse and rider safety the absolute top priority?