Another rider death

[joiedevie99]

@AnastasiaBeaverhousen

Before moving up to the next level a rider must demonstrate proficiency in a set of written directives.

This sounds a lot like Pony Club. At each rating, we were judged on our abilities on cross-country. After a certain level, we also had to swap horses on cross-country and prove we could ride another candidate’s horse competently. I don’t event anymore, but I’m forever grateful for the background Pony Club gave me.

[skydy]

Whip length, spur type, bits, etc… are objective calls. Easy. :yes:

It seems that many officials are hesitant to use their expertise to make the subjective calls.
Dangerous riding and pushing an exhausted are serious violations of the rules and really, the most important rules to enforce to keep from having falls on course.

Difficult? Yes. Essential? Yes.

[Jealoushe]

@MNEventer

What I find so depressing is that officials have no qualms eliminating riders for a whip that’s a centimeter too long or wearing the wrong spurs. But can’t see their way to eliminating people for basically bolting around x-c just barely aiming their horse at the right fence. I think officials at events need to be encouraged to step in when someone looks like they’re having control issues.

I think I’ve told this story on this forum before, but I was jump judging a few years ago and a horse slid into my jump, putting her leg through a piece of rotten wood. The only thing the rider seemed concerned about was whether her horse had any visible cuts. I told her I couldn’t see any, and she continued on. I would have been concerned about possible splinters or damage under the boot, but she ran the rest of the Training course. The POGJ and TD took a long time to respond to my “broken jump” messages over the radio, so about 4 or 5 riders jumped the broken jump with wood pieces around it. It was a simple fix, but it felt like a serious hazard was not a priority. Very much a culture of indifference that JER alluded to at the beginning of this thread.

How do we fix this? How do we get people to err on the side of caution and make horse and rider safety the absolute top priority?

Not that dissimilar to the thread I got blasted on for asking a question about a horse who stopped at a fence and ended up on top of it, then is allowed to continue. Later on the rider falls.

I asked why that was allowed and literally was burned to crisp on this forum for daring ask that question about an amateur rider who people love. The irony is the writer of the EN piece who wants answers is one of the ppl who attacked me the hardest.

So do we care about Eventing or do we actually care. For some us we have been having this conversation on here for over a decade! A decade and nothing changes. I’m actually shocked at the amount of conversation that’s happening for once and it is a great thing. But if we are going to ask questions we need to be able to ask questions BEFORE someone’s is dead.

@puffergirl you might have more fun starting a new MB thread for the dressage forum if there isn’t one yet.

[Jealoushe]

@skydy

Whip length, spur type, bits, etc… are objective calls. Easy. :yes:

It seems that many officials are hesitant to use their expertise to make the subjective calls.
Dangerous riding and pushing an exhausted are serious violations of the rules and really, the most important rules to enforce to keep from having falls on course.

Difficult? Yes. Essential? Yes.

Blood… oh wait apparently that’s subjective too.

[kiwichick]

@Gnep

Well you ugly old bastard, am still kicking. Got 5 pasture ornaments, one was a eventer Cerveza, Wild Fire kicked the bucket last spring, have 3 dogs, 2 pigs and naturally my Bier and my youthful outstanding looks, as you know.

It is rather mute to talk about the jump which killed the horse and its rider. You know as well as I do, it was not this jump which caused the crash, it is a chain of mistakes, on course, which caused it.
When I investigated those crashes I tried to get as much footage of the whole ride as possible and a little history about horse and rider. They do same basic investigation around the jump and always come to the conclusion, " horse dropped a leg " or the most famous " freak accident " and in a couple of weeks nobody talks about it.
If a airplane comes down, they investigate everything, pilots, maintenance, logs and piece the sucker together again, to find what caused it.
I did a few investigations for some folks in Europe, as you might remember.
I collected video, pictures, historical data for weeks on each of those crashes and than pieced the whole ride together, knowing what to look for and I was able to see the outcome around 4 to 5 jumps before it happened.

Remember that girl who killed her horse at that keyhole jump at Rolex, rotational, broken neck. Everybody tore into her, because she had a big mouth and liked to brag how fast she could ride and that she killed her horse because she was to fast.
The key to the crash was the horses history, it just did not like keyholes. It was a very measured approach, the little ditch and than the keyhole on a small rise. You had to gallop into the bottom of the ditch and than up to the jump, if the horse would gallop from bank to bank, it would get unbalanced and the next stride to take of would not just unbalanced but very short…
The approach was close to 500, very balanced, even strides, rider sitting perfectly upright, good leg position, school book, horses head in perfect position, but than when she reached the top of that little ditch thingy, she took her lower legs backwards and dug her spur in and the horse extended its stride, did not gallop into the ditch but into the other side, unbalanced, very short stride and dead meat. If that little ditch thingy would not have been there, the Samurai would have cleared the Jump.
I think I remember the horses name right.
As you see my photographic memory is still rather good.
I have thrown all the stuff, notes videos of the crashes I look at away. But that gray glibber , those 2 or 3 cells, which allow me to open a Bier and not pee in my Bier, have it still all registered.

Are you still blowing things up ?

Thanks for this.
probably the most useful thing ive read in regards to being self aware and critically evaluating your performance.

Id love to see some of your other findings but I’m assuming you can’t release them.

[Rallycairn]

@Gnep

Well you ugly old bastard, am still kicking. Got 5 pasture ornaments, one was a eventer Cerveza, Wild Fire kicked the bucket last spring, have 3 dogs, 2 pigs and naturally my Bier and my youthful outstanding looks, as you know.

It is rather mute to talk about the jump which killed the horse and its rider. You know as well as I do, it was not this jump which caused the crash, it is a chain of mistakes, on course, which caused it.
When I investigated those crashes I tried to get as much footage of the whole ride as possible and a little history about horse and rider. They do same basic investigation around the jump and always come to the conclusion, " horse dropped a leg " or the most famous " freak accident " and in a couple of weeks nobody talks about it.
If a airplane comes down, they investigate everything, pilots, maintenance, logs and piece the sucker together again, to find what caused it.
I did a few investigations for some folks in Europe, as you might remember.
I collected video, pictures, historical data for weeks on each of those crashes and than pieced the whole ride together, knowing what to look for and I was able to see the outcome around 4 to 5 jumps before it happened.

Remember that girl who killed her horse at that keyhole jump at Rolex, rotational, broken neck. Everybody tore into her, because she had a big mouth and liked to brag how fast she could ride and that she killed her horse because she was to fast.
The key to the crash was the horses history, it just did not like keyholes. It was a very measured approach, the little ditch and than the keyhole on a small rise. You had to gallop into the bottom of the ditch and than up to the jump, if the horse would gallop from bank to bank, it would get unbalanced and the next stride to take of would not just unbalanced but very short…
The approach was close to 500, very balanced, even strides, rider sitting perfectly upright, good leg position, school book, horses head in perfect position, but than when she reached the top of that little ditch thingy, she took her lower legs backwards and dug her spur in and the horse extended its stride, did not gallop into the ditch but into the other side, unbalanced, very short stride and dead meat. If that little ditch thingy would not have been there, the Samurai would have cleared the Jump.
I think I remember the horses name right.
As you see my photographic memory is still rather good.
I have thrown all the stuff, notes videos of the crashes I look at away. But that gray glibber , those 2 or 3 cells, which allow me to open a Bier and not pee in my Bier, have it still all registered.

Are you still blowing things up ?

I believe this description may be of Laine Ashker and Frodo Baggins at the Flower Basket with the arch overhead (keyhole)? Le Samurai, ridden by Amy Tryon, was ridden to the finish and jumped on a shattered leg (dear God), but did not have a rotational that led to his death. Or maybe it’s another horse’s fall altogether. But not Le Samurai. FWIW.

[Ruth0552]

The USEA changes the rules every damn year. They just outlawed French links for crying out loud. This whole situation pisses me off because they have it, within their power, to improve safety at USEA sanctioned events. I realize that the very upper levels are governed by the FEI but it is better than nothing.

Action items for the USEA:

1. stop the use of Tables jumps immediately until the jump can be replaced or retrofitted to be collapsible. Most of the time these are portable so they can be moved off course temporarily, or just not used.

2. require combinations to be limited to 2 jumps. I can’t think why anyone needs to jump 3 jump combinations on a cross country course. Can we please keep the stadium courses in the stadium ring?

3. require events where a fatality has occurred to end immediately. I realize this might cost both riders and venues money to start, but in the end I think would end up with both show organizers and riders monitoring the safety of the rides better. It’ll be more likely for a venue to pull a rider up for dangerous riding and more likely for riders to monitor each other. “The show must go on” doesn’t belong in eventing when someone dies.

If if someone wrote a letter to the USEA, detailing requested, no demanding action items with specific ideas I would be MORE than happy to sign it. It could be done via an internet petition website.

I did read read most of this thread but I apologize if I missed something. Also I’m posting from my phone, so I’m sorry for my terrible editing and poor grammar.

[AZ_TD]

Is it possible that the bits, nosebands, martingales allowed in cross country are contributing to riders missing basic skills and allowing the out of control, unbalanced rides?

[Marigold]

@ake987

Do people read for comprehension here? My comment about ego had nothing to do with Kat/Kerry. I was replying to a question about Elisa Wallace and Hwin. I’d appreciate if you edit your post to remove my comment as substantiation for your point.

I do (and did) understand that your comment had to do with a different combination than the one that inspired this thread. However, it spoke to my greater point of what will and will not get through to a rider someone feels needs a reality check. Unfortunately, nothing on this thread will help Kat or Kerry, so I was speaking more generally about how to handle similar rides in the future.

If your intention was simply to have your thoughts on her ride heard, I am happy to edit, but my understanding was that everyone intended the feedback they had to offer on other peoples’ rides to be productive (for the rider and by extension, the horse). If that wasn’t your intention, I apologize for misunderstanding, and will edit according to your preference.

[skydy]

@Jealoushe

Blood… oh wait apparently that’s subjective too.

The “new” blood rule is as clear as mud and is up to the veterinarian to decide, isn’t it?

[ake987]

@Marigold

I do (and did) understand that your comment had to do with a different combination than the one that inspired this thread. However, it spoke to my greater point of what will and will not get through to a rider someone feels needs a reality check. Unfortunately, nothing on this thread will help Kat or Kerry, so I was speaking more generally about how to handle similar rides in the future.

If your intention was simply to have your thoughts on her ride heard, I am happy to edit, but my understanding was that everyone intended the feedback they had to offer on other peoples’ rides to be productive (for the rider and by extension, the horse). If that wasn’t your intention, I apologize for misunderstanding, and will edit according to your preference.

Again, the reply you quoted was a response to a question about a different horse and rider and the way you presented it leaves out that context, making it appear I said it about Kat. It is misleading. Once more, I’d appreciate if you edited your original response quoting me. Thanks.

[JER]

@Ruth0552

The USEA changes the rules every damn year.

The USEF is the rule-making and rule-enforcing body, not USEA.

[Marigold]

@ake987

Again, the reply you quoted was a response to a question about a different horse and rider and the way you presented it leaves out that context, making it appear I said it about Kat. It is misleading. Once more, I’d appreciate if you edited your original response quoting me. Thanks.

Not a problem - I have edited the original post to be sure the context is clear. Thank you for reaching out.

[Ubu_Goober]

@BAY WITH CHROME

I watched the July 2019 video. I should forward this with a caveat. I’m just a low level rider trying to wrap my head around the tragedy that’s happened, and what’s been happening to this sport. I mostly ride dressage, but I like eventing and we usually go to one or two BN/N events a year. I am a USEA member, but I’m low hanging fruit.

I have way more experience in this sport as a spectator and volunteer jump judge than as a rider, so take what I say below with a grain of salt.

I read the comments before watching the video. They made me expect way worse. With the exception of the poor call made to go through the unmowed portion of the course, this ride seemed about average for what I see when I jump judge. I saw a strong horse that was forward and had a tendency to want to flatten out and get on the forehand, and a rider that was correcting that a few strides before the fence. I saw a horse that took a lot of strong rein aids to half-halt but that’s very common on cross country. They met a few fences underpowered, but I did not see a horse with a lack of scope for this level… Isn’t that course beefy for the level? I saw what I would say was an average pair on a tough track… so are average riders now getting killed in our sport? When I say average, I mean that they are the middling line, not professionals with incredibly talent and not riders that just fell off the turnip cart either.

I’ve watched many riders on course ride like the above. Is that the metric for “dangerous riding”? Excluding the unmowed portion - I mean the rest of the ride. Am I not doing my due diligence in reporting them for dangerous riding to the TD? My honest take has been the last few events I’ve jump-judged at, most riders were way more dangerous than the above in between fences, with horses barely in control and riders really loose in the tack.

Bold mine. What this says to me is that the “norm” that people’s eyes are adjusted to is a standard of riding that is marginal and marginal skill should not be allowed a pass on one’s way up the levels in any undertaking. And I think even low level riders as well as non-riders are capable of identifying a scary vs competent round, even if they don’t know the specific component(s) or corrections that need to be made to change the scary ride to the competent one. That would be the job of a trainer.

I’ve been taught a correction in the last 3-4 strides is a no-no. Get your correction or rebalancing in if needed before those last 3-4 strides because those belong to the horse for him or her to figure out what they are doing and not be distracted or taken off balance by rider input. If your horse didn’t listen when the correction was made that’s the information that you need to take home and work on (or continue to work on if you are schooling XC not competing at the time).

[Xctrygirl]

@Rallycairn

I agree it’s not Le Samurai. Don’t think it’s Frodo either since @Gnep is mentioning terrain around it and the basket was on the flat. I think he was thinking of Laine with the speed comment but the rest of it doesn’t match and honestly there’s been plenty of speedy riders. Could be anyone.

I remember something in the hollow that would match the mounds description but don’t recall a keyhole or horse death with it.

But agree it’s not Le Samurai.

Em

[westieeventer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNMeiWLZFoM

I am sorry she passed away. Breaks my heart a rider and horse died in a sport I love. This video was from last summer and there was something not right there, if no improvement this was bound to happen! Odd because earlier video show some smoothness but Rebecca was just scary

[bradt99]

@Rallycairn

Absolutely! @bradt99 , please don’t feel you have to leave COTH because of an accusatory and exclusionary post like CindyCRNA’s. If posting on COTH helps you at all with your grief, please continue to do so, while also seeking out any help you may need from much more direct resources. You are welcome here! Don’t cut yourself off from something you’ve said has helped you in some small way. I am sure I am not the only one who welcomes you here – far from it.

CindyRNA should have a little compassion for me for losing my aunt and she should understand my frustration and anger when I hear of another death off a horse. It just brings back the day I heard about Melanies death. It’s still painful.

[Maren]

@JER

Which is a rider mistake of potentially lethal consequences.

There’s no other side to this. You cannot safely adjust a horse 3, 2 or 1 stride in front of the fence.

You might get away with it sometimes but it’s something you don’t do.

If you don’t see a distance, you put your leg on, keep your hand low and let the horse sort it out. This is the only answer. You do not attempt to yank the horse off its stride and out of balance when you’re that close to a jump.

I’m sure many of us here have been called out for doing something like this.

‘That’s how people get killed!’ Is how I heard it. And the coach was right.

This, this and 100 times this. In general terms, not specifically related to this tragedy.

I had the great opportunity to work at the most recent USEA ICP and YEH clinic in Ocala, about 3 weeks ago, together with Andreas Dibowski. We spent 3 full days with many different riders and horses at very different levels of training and expertise, at the wonderful Barnstable South facility just behind HITS. I could write a book about the impressions Dibo and I took away from this.
But I can tell you what he kept saying the most, and loudest, to riders for 3 straight days: keep your horse straight and lengthen your reins. Riders looked at me as if I was crazy when I told many of them time and again to forget about riding a perfect distance. On average, horses were ridden way below appropriate ground speed and man-handled, with rough hands, into “perfect” positions about 3 strides before takeoff. And because the jumps were small, we saw nothing serious happen. As things got more technical with higher level groups, horses were smart enough to start stopping or runnig out instead of attempting to jump.
I’m not saying that the participants of the clinic were riding dangerously. What I am saying is that it struck me how many were trying to achieve total control, something that IMHO is not inherent to the sport. Dibo made a point about telling the crowds that VERY few riders have the ability to ride perfect distances xc, or always presenting the horse with the correct take off (he said he only knew one, and it wasn’t himself ;-).

The lack of basic (dressage) training, attention to the first 3 steps of the training scale, is a major issue in eventing. Not only in the US. Straightness and balance make the sport safe®; too many trainers don’t understand this concept, and too many riders think they can do without.
Just my 2 cents.

[anon38350891]

@Puffergrrl

God, I missed you guys! I can’t help but think you missed me too. I assumed the sky would be falling on my Chickens Little after the tragic event this weekend. (Of course, to assume makes an ass out of you and Uma Thurman).
.

The earlier portions of this post (#320) are just about the nastiest stuff I’ve ever seen on this board, and I’ve been around for a loooong time, and I survived the political threads.

Puffergrrl, in order to be as intertextually mean as you needed to be, you were compelled to misconstrue almost every sentence of that long post. Impressive athleticism, but you may be coming too hard at your fences.

[mvp]

@SLR

Locke Meadows. The 1st video you posted is of a rider who was an alternate for the US team for the 2016 Olympics. She was riding a mustang. Do with this what you will.

OK, back to the bad-jumping* mustang video for a second.

After this post and in response to the “Olympic rider” comment and “do with this what you will,” I’m sure I don’t know what this all means. I wrote “OK, but why compete a horse that would have that much trouble?” and someone assumed that my question was rhetorical.

Yanno, I don’t think it was rhetorical. I don’t know why the pedigree of the horse or rider makes that jumping OK or does not. I can’t tell what Locke Meadows meant for us to get out of adding this background info about that round.

*I ask in a non-rhetorical way because I don’t know what standards modern eventers have for good/safe vs. unsafe jumping. I asked because the way that horse hit the poles low enough on her front legs and hard enough (even after the near-fall) to push them out in front of her was the part that scared me.

I asked, too, because this isn’t the first time I’ve been around a discipline other than my own that tolerated jumping styles that seem truly and obviously unsafe to me. Here, I’m thinking of Arabian Sporthorses. Love the idea of that type of showing for these fun, sound, smart, useful little horses, and I have been looking for a USEF-hunter-ring-worthy Half-Arabian for a couple of years. But many of those cute horses jump out over their front legs, with low and/or uneven knees. And the folks in that young, breed-loving discipline don’t seem to mind. I, on the other hand, remember old textbooks calling that jumping style unsafe since the horse might not be able to “unfold the landing gear” fast enough.

My point is that if I see something unsafe, I (politely) won’t ride it. I’ll say something if the situation warrants. But the point I am making via the example of my Arabian Sporthorse friends is the way their “search image” for a good-jumping horse has become normalized to something I think is bad in a significant way. Form follows function and there are usually sound, safety reasons behind the tried-and-true bits of advice about having a horse broke and rideable at all speeds, insisting on straightness for the horse and a value for the rider, or choosing the elements of jumping style that we do.