Another rider death

[Bif]

I do think to assess your own safety and the safety of your horse, each rider has to be honest with themselves and their abilities and stay within them

“A good horseman is safe at all times, provided the horse stays afoot.” How many of us hold that inside and strive for that? Realize that it is largely your decisions (whether by mount selection, choice of riding location choice of work asked of the horse) that most influences if your horse “stays afoot”.

Have trouble being tight in the tack? If possible, take lessons with a strong equitation instructor. Yes, you are an eventer… keep the good and discard the irrelevant-to-your-discipline. Be open minded… if you selected a good trainer, there is very little in learning proper balanced position that is truly irrelevant in our sport. Both a strong leg and strong and balanced core are never a detriment. Watch and listen on foot to others lessons, and see if you can see and understand the deficiencies that need work before you hear the instructor’s corrections.

Can’t afford lessons? Read good, test of time books. BHS will not steer you wrong. Go spectate at h/j shows and watch watch watch. Learn what a strong but sympathetic rider looks like. Determine what suboptimal riders are doing and why? How does that look and correlate to the team’s performance? Try to find trusted eyes on the ground or at least a bored friend who will video you. Very worse case, try to get decent video from a phone set on the fence post to view a swath of the area your working to critique later.

Audit everything you can, and don’t turn your brain off. You will always learn, whether what to do or what not to do. Clinician too harsh, unfair? You see what makes that the case, weigh against what they are trying to teach or accomplish, consider what you might do if you were riding in that situation. Put your horse first, and think about whether you would go along to get along, or call it a day. Which would be better for your horse?

Drop your stirrups in your jump saddle and actually post. Two point the canter. Jump fences. Too hard? Still necessary. Do you want to event safely?

Maybe you would rather not do the work to improve as needed for what you want to accomplish. Maybe you cannot. Openly and honestly think about whether this is the sport or level for you. Maybe it’s not, or maybe it’s just not at this phase of your life. That’s fine. That’s honest. And that’s being fair to the horse.

As to keeping the horse afoot, I am a huge proponent of Jimmy Wofford’s school of thought.

[gardenie]

Jealoushe “I love this sport and it’s all I know, but the attitudes towards lost lives of both humans and horses and the following lack of action is leaving a very bad taste in my mouth. I don’t know if I can support a sport that is so oblivious to a very serious problem it has. I don’t want to die and I really really don’t want my horses to die on course.”

Hey! I think there is a great deal of sadness and soul searching going on. Lack of action, I don’t know, we keep seeing knee jerk reactions instead of actually looking for what is the sport and how to make it what it needs to be. Almost all the changes I see on courses seemed like a good idea, but yet in implementation…not so sure.

Eventing started as a military sport. It’s roots were in preparing for warfare. I know you’ve watched the old videos. And many of those horses in eventing training were disposed of back then in unsavory manners, as well as many cavalrymen got hurt and died. I chose eventing because of its origins…I was an Army officer. My first event was in 1982. I’ve seen it all as have you I think. I would have thought we were crazy to jump some of the stuff we do today, toothbrush narrows REALLY IS A JUMP? Most of the horses I see winning today would never make good cavalry horses.

Before the internet, people and horses died on course. A month later the Chronicle would have an article. It didn’t travel the world in an instant. Most of what we refuse to tolerate has to do with how hard we think about it. If you think people didn’t think about the risks throughout time, take another look at Gone with the Wind. Just a little bit going on about jumping horses…

We are all going to die. Our horses are going to die. I go out of the start box knowing I’m prepared. That my horse is prepared. And I am not thinking about either of us dying…I’m thinking about that very moment in my life. I don’t want to stay home and eat bon bons and slowly die. I want my horse to be a vital, useful creature, not something I feed everyday and look at. We can enjoy the life we have, train for our sport the best we can, and let the chips fall where they may. And the odds are with me that I’ll ride another day.

I say all this with the thought that there is going to be change. I just want it to be more thought out, and sometimes taking the time means it looks like nothing is happening. Additionally, if folks just get more thoughtful, that is change.

[beowulf]

@gardenie

Jealoushe “I love this sport and it’s all I know, but the attitudes towards lost lives of both humans and horses and the following lack of action is leaving a very bad taste in my mouth. I don’t know if I can support a sport that is so oblivious to a very serious problem it has. I don’t want to die and I really really don’t want my horses to die on course.”

Hey! I think there is a great deal of sadness and soul searching going on. Lack of action, I don’t know, we keep seeing knee jerk reactions instead of actually looking for what is the sport and how to make it what it needs to be. Almost all the changes I see on courses seemed like a good idea, but yet in implementation…not so sure.

[ … ]

I say all this with the thought that there is going to be change. I just want it to be more thought out, and sometimes taking the time means it looks like nothing is happening. Additionally, if folks just get more thoughtful, that is change.

:yes:

For certain there is much trial and error when it comes to implementations of new things – that pesky hindsight, which only seems to arrive after the dust has settled and all things are said and done… we’ve seen our fair share of unintended consequences with new rules, too.

That being said I would prefer that to the indifference we see from our governing body. I don’t want a return of the “bygone sport”. It wasn’t safe then either. I was a WS for a BNT who did the long format and some of those fences and conditions made my toes curl. I’m glad to see most of those fences and questions gone.

I’d like a modernized compromise - a sport where we can still test the partnership and the skill of training between horse and rider, but without mistakes costing them their lives.

Of all the things mentioned in this thread, I still think one thing that sticks out is that the speed in which we are supposed to go has not changed since the inception of this sport. That is something that could possibly use revision. I genuinely believe a big part of eventing’s problem when it comes to safety is the speed factor - not the galloping at fences, but the fact that you have to constantly start and stop, rev and brake, go headlong and then go in a crawl through trappy combinations – that is a very mentally taxing and physically taxing endeavor and tired combinations MAKE mistakes. It also makes even well-broke horses become very reactionary – which is another reason we see so many intricate or elaborate bit set-ups on cross country. It’s not that those horses are wildly out of control or barely broke - I’m sure many of them could pilot a Novice course in much less medieval hardware – but for the ULs you need that extra bit of recall and finesse, and sometimes in a horse that is full of adrenaline, you might find you’re being completely ignored in milder hardware. You can go back and school this until it’s old hat, but that’s not being awarded in today’s climate.

I don’t have solutions. I’ve wondered often, about what would change if the sport increased the distance and time of courses, and slowed down the required MPM. So many riders are riding pellmell through a course to make the time, which doesn’t leave you much time to set up a good and balanced approach to a fence deserving of a little respect.

[Twisting]

@JER

One big issue with voting with your feet is that there’s no refunds so your gesture counts for nothing. It hurts no one except you. Once you’re there and walk the course, you’ve just spent about $1000 for the weekend, packed up your horse and driven several hours. If you say ‘This course is dangerous, I’m going home’ - then so what?

I guess you can fill out the event evaluation for but you’re delusional if you think that goes anywhere.

One person walks away and it’s no big deal, 10, 15, 20 walk away, and don’t sign up for the next show and it will make an impact. But many are willing to put their lives at risk because they don’t want to walk away from $1000. They aren’t willing to forego showing entirely if all the shows near them have a pattern of being dangerous. So long as people are willing to take the risk your ability to impact change is minimal. As evidenced by the fact that this conversation is 20 year old and people are still dying.

If an adult is willing to sit on a horse and point it at a fence they know can kill them if they make a mistake then the thought that they might die must not bother them that much. You guys know the risks by now. Stop supporting places that have dangerous jumps and courses.

[JER]

@Twisting

One person walks away and it’s no big deal, 10, 15, 20 walk away, and don’t sign up for the next show and it will make an impact.

Except this ‘next show’ might be one year later. And then it’s another year to the next show which would be the one that reflected the impact of the show from two years ago.

Does anyone think this will be effective?

When venues lose money on HTs, the tendency is to shut down the HT rather than probe for answers of why people aren’t entering.

[JER]

@beowulf

I’d like a modernized compromise - a sport where we can still test the partnership and the skill of training between horse and rider, but without mistakes costing them their lives.

This is really well said.

Totally agree.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

@Jealoushe

I agree with this so much and honestly I’m just wavering on the edge right now of walking away. So many Eventers have no idea this conversation has been going on this long, over a decade! Nothing has changed, it almost seems like the trend is going up again for fatalities.

I love this sport and it’s all I know, but the attitudes towards lost lives of both humans and horses and the following lack of action is leaving a very bad taste in my mouth. I don’t know if I can support a sport that is so oblivious to a very serious problem it has. I don’t want to die and I really really don’t want my horses to die on course.

yes there is action to get funding for frangibles, but whose idea was that and who even knows if that will change anything? Agree with the poster earlier who said we can’t follow advice from UL riders and coaches, we need actual scientists and data analysts here.

Can we not fundraise to do more research and collect data??? Surely finding out WHAT THE ISSUES TRULY ARE is equally or more important than having fences fall down.

We all have to make personal decisions. I remember talking about this issue with Jimmy Wofford and his point was step one is be safe yourself. Be honest with your own skills, your horses skills and suitability…and do the homework of good training. Will that make you totally safe…no, riding isn’t safe but you will be safer.

Beyond that…we HAVE been doing a lot for safety. We HAVE been collecting data and doing research. Rules have changed. When an event like this happens…people get engerized but they are often not focused. Case in point…the rapid fund raising for frangible tables via go fund me. I looked at to doing a program to help fund frangible tables to subsidize for Area II events MONTHS ago…and what I discovered is we WERE testing such technologies and there was a fund for it with the USEA. I’ve since contributed to that fund (the small amount I can) when I renewed my membership. It was too early to buy such tables. There are a few different table designs and they each have their flaws. Yes, we need outside testing…but that takes time…last thing I want is to invest money in a frangible table that turns out to be more dangerous than a normal non-frangible jump. (Cough…cough…air vests). It is also just a bandaid. I don’t think collapsible fences fix all the issues. But that is simple…and people think they are doing something…same with passing more rules.

and in the end…each person needs to decide what risk they are willing to take. Riding horses has risk, jumping has risks…jumping at speed has risks. But I do get tired of people saying we are doing nothing…we are. Lots of good people are working on it. Things take time. I’d like a lot more transparency and we certainly need to keep doing more.

https://useventing.com/news-media/ne…-far-weve-come

[Lindsay_Berreth]

I wanted to add to the discussion that Pippa Cuckson wrote a great report for COTH from the FEI Eventing Risk Management seminar in January which looks at rider responsibility.

In case you missed it: https://www.chronofhorse.com/article/dont-wait-on-the-fei-creative-solutions-for-a-safer-sport-star-in-eventing-risk-management-seminar

[RainWeasley]

@Twisting

Nothing is going to change until eventers are willing to walk away from the sport if change doesn’t occur.

Eventers are all adults (or kids with adults making the choices for them). The folks who know that these jumps are dangerous and choose to go out there and jump them are telling the folks running these events that they are willing to accept the risk of dying. The eventers still going to events are telling the event coordinators that the joy of running the course matters more to them than their own safety or the safety of their horse. If the people actually out there risking their lives don’t care enough to walk away why should the folks running these events care about spending the money to make it safer. Why is it up to them to care more about your safety than you. Until you tell them that you take your own safety seriously by being willing to walk away they aren’t going to change anything. (The generic “you” not directed at any one poster)

Maybe we should make our own version of eventing.

[trubandloki]

@bornfreenowexpensive

We all have to make personal decisions. I remember talking about this issue with Jimmy Wofford and his point was step one is be safe yourself. Be honest with your own skills, your horses skills and suitability…and do the homework of good training. Will that make you totally safe…no, riding isn’t safe but you will be safer.

I agree with this.

The hard part about this is represented well in a pretty recent post making fun of people who would like to jump smaller jumps and how it is a joke to not go out and do the big stuff. How dare people want to start with lower fences, etc.

(Said by someone who never wants to do anything but small fences.)

[Jealoushe]

@gardenie

Jealoushe “I love this sport and it’s all I know, but the attitudes towards lost lives of both humans and horses and the following lack of action is leaving a very bad taste in my mouth. I don’t know if I can support a sport that is so oblivious to a very serious problem it has. I don’t want to die and I really really don’t want my horses to die on course.”

Hey! I think there is a great deal of sadness and soul searching going on. Lack of action, I don’t know, we keep seeing knee jerk reactions instead of actually looking for what is the sport and how to make it what it needs to be. Almost all the changes I see on courses seemed like a good idea, but yet in implementation…not so sure.

Eventing started as a military sport. It’s roots were in preparing for warfare. I know you’ve watched the old videos. And many of those horses in eventing training were disposed of back then in unsavory manners, as well as many cavalrymen got hurt and died. I chose eventing because of its origins…I was an Army officer. My first event was in 1982. I’ve seen it all as have you I think. I would have thought we were crazy to jump some of the stuff we do today, toothbrush narrows REALLY IS A JUMP? Most of the horses I see winning today would never make good cavalry horses.

Before the internet, people and horses died on course. A month later the Chronicle would have an article. It didn’t travel the world in an instant. Most of what we refuse to tolerate has to do with how hard we think about it. If you think people didn’t think about the risks throughout time, take another look at Gone with the Wind. Just a little bit going on about jumping horses…

We are all going to die. Our horses are going to die. I go out of the start box knowing I’m prepared. That my horse is prepared. And I am not thinking about either of us dying…I’m thinking about that very moment in my life. I don’t want to stay home and eat bon bons and slowly die. I want my horse to be a vital, useful creature, not something I feed everyday and look at. We can enjoy the life we have, train for our sport the best we can, and let the chips fall where they may. And the odds are with me that I’ll ride another day.

I say all this with the thought that there is going to be change. I just want it to be more thought out, and sometimes taking the time means it looks like nothing is happening. Additionally, if folks just get more thoughtful, that is change.

All fine and dandy except this isn’t a knee jerk reaction from me. This conversation has been happening for more than a decade on this board alone. The amount of time and energy alone posters here have discussed, researched, and been involved with their direct eventing community is enormous.

I’m glad some people like yourself can happily leave the start box knowing you might die and bo OK with it, I am not however. I do not want my friends and family packing up my tack, driving my empty trailer home and having to deal with my horses at home and my entire life I left behind because I was addicted to a sport that willingly ignores the fact people and horses are dying too often.

[subk]

I’m not going to go read 22 pages–I’ve participated in too many of these conversations over the years as it is–but just in case this hasn’t been stated…

Frangible technology has been used by course designers to make courses harder and even more technical and perhaps more dangerous in the long run. Every frangible pin break should be recorded and the information should be used, not just to penalize a riders score, but also as reflection of the quality of course design and as such the competence of the course designer.

We have 5 star events with over a dozen frangible pin breaks, several on the same fence, and no one bats an eye. No one bothers to consider that there is a design problem and without the pins there would have been carnage. Each break should be viewed as technical horse falls not for rider scoring, but as a way to view the quality of the course. If a course produces an excessive number a technical horse falls and the same designer keeps producing courses with high number of technical falls, it’s time to stop hiring that designer and perhaps consider a way to apply some sort of sanctions on designers with high numbers.

Frangible pins are a stop gap measure that hide bad course design and let us all ignore poorly design courses and bad course designers.

It’s been years since I rode at the upper levels or competed a lot but while I did I stop going to events where Mark Phillips designed the courses, precisely because the amount of falls that seem to happen on his courses. Vote with your entry fees. As a competitor I should be able to view results sorted by XC course designer. If we changed our culture to view pin breaks as a bad reflection on a designer–just like we do horse falls–then gave competitor the information the market would organically produce pressure to change.

[Jealoushe]

@subk

I’m not going to go read 22 pages–I’ve participated in too many of these conversations over the years as it is–but just in case this hasn’t been stated…

Frangible technology has been used by course designers to make courses harder and even more technical and perhaps more dangerous in the long run. Every frangible pin break should be recorded and the information should be used, not just to penalize a riders score, but also as reflection of the quality of course design and as such the competence of the course designer.

We have 5 star events with over a dozen frangible pin breaks, several on the same fence, and no one bats an eye. No one bothers to consider that there is a design problem and without the pins there would have been carnage. Each break should be viewed as technical horse falls not for rider scoring, but as a way to view the quality of the course. If a course produces an excessive number a technical horse falls and the same designer keeps producing courses with high number of technical falls, it’s time to stop hiring that designer and perhaps consider a way to apply some sort of sanctions on designers with high numbers.

Frangible pins are a stop gap measure that hide bad course design and let us all ignore poorly design courses and bad course designers.

It’s been years since I rode at the upper levels or competed a lot but while I did I stop going to events where Mark Phillips designed the courses, precisely because the amount of falls that seem to happen on his courses. Vote with your entry fees. As a competitor I should be able to view results sorted by XC course designer. If we changed our culture to view pin breaks as a bad reflection on a designer–just like we do horse falls–then gave competitor the information the market would organically produce pressure to change.

I so agree. I was listening to CMP be interviewed after that event and he fully admitted he designs fences with frangibles on the course differently because they can give or a have a miss. This is disgusting. When will course designers become accountable?

[Denali6298]

@trubandloki

I agree with this.

The hard part about this is represented well in a pretty recent post making fun of people who would like to jump smaller jumps and how it is a joke to not go out and do the big stuff. How dare people want to start with lower fences, etc.

(Said by someone who never wants to do anything but small fences.)

I viewed those posts as not necessarily making fun at those of us who want to stick to smaller fences, but frustration about the reasons from someone who tried 10-15 years ago to get TPTB to fix the issues beyond bandaids.

If one reads through the numerous threads about rider deaths and safety, the same ideas and thoughts about what could make a difference beyond frangible pin jumps are the same ideas and thoughts brought up in this thread.

Maybe that post was making fun of people who want to ride the lower levels. That’s fine. I no longer want to go to the higher levels BECAUSE it seems TPTB are indifferent to the ideas and thoughts that have been talked about for so long now. I’m not willing to take the risk. If that’s enough to for a person to make fun of me than so be it. As BFNE said people need to know their limitations and their horse’s limitations. To me that means mental and physical.

[Eventer2483]

@Jealoushe

Here is the fence.

So I have a few comments. Is there a ground line? It’s a table, but actually more of a feeder fence with a lip? The top is bigger than the bottom of the fence. I thought it was also determined that only ascending face tables were safe?

I thought after the woman did earlier this year over the log with no ground line that we realized we need ground lines in eventing?

WHY are course designers against ground lines and trying to trip horses up? Why are we building jumps where the top height is wider than the bottom??

To my knowledge eventing has never used ground lines. And that table, to me, looks perfectly acceptable. I would wager that many falls are result of rider errors/miscalculations.

[Jealoushe]

@Eventer2483

To my knowledge eventing has never used ground lines. And that table, to me, looks perfectly acceptable. I would wager that many falls are result of rider errors/miscalculations.

You would wager but thats the second death in 6 months at a fence with no ground line.

[millerra]

I watched the video and my read on it was that it had a ground line of hay at the bottom. That’s just what I perceived in the video. I didn’t bother to look hard.

I was impressed with the EW video. it seemed well ridden and out of stride. I didn’t notice overt slowing and speeding up of pace- grinding of gears - per say. It seemed like there was rebalancing, etc - but a lovely ride it seemed to be. I would say - that if you can’t do Xcountry for the most part - this smoothly - you shouldn’t be heading out of the start box at anything higher than novice.

About the BN derision. That is part of the problem, in my humble opinion. Why sneer at people who want to enjoy this sport at the lower levels and have fun? Just teach them to be safe. Don’t make them feel “less then” by not striving for the upper levels. The kids and ambitious adults hear this - and want to be someone - and so they push faster than they are ready for.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

@Denali6298

To me that means mental and physical.

Absolutely. And there is NOTHING wrong with only wanting to jump small fences…or not to jump at all…even if you may have the skill set to do more. Honestly…this is an extreme sport…especially at the higher elite levels. Not all horses should be aimed to those levels (and it isn’t just about scope) and certainly not all riders should get to that level.

[Denali6298]

@Jealoushe

You would wager but thats the second death in 6 months at a fence with no ground line.

Obviously I don’t compete at very high levels. I have been jumping for decades now and started out in H/J land. We had an outside course where I rode as a junior and the only time we had ground lines were present at a fence were the fences made from poles and standards. They were also pretty airy compared to today’s hunter jumps, where it seems to my eye, many verticals are narrow oxers with all the fill.

So me personally, I’m okay with no ground line and my horses have been okay with no ground line. Is the difference the size? The change in light with shade vs no shade? Training?

[gardenie]

I thought it was also determined that only ascending face tables were safe? No jump is safe. Horses will ordinarily choose to go around fences if given a choice. They don’t see that well. That’s why we spend an inordinate amount of time training them and ourselves.

Course designers test skills. As you move up the levels, it gets harder. Hanging out with designers, I don’t think they are out to get us, they want to test us. If they don’t get it hard enough, they get in trouble. If they hurt someone, they get in trouble.

I am myself finding the Working Equitation interesting http://www.weunited.us/