Another rider death

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Ground lines are a little bit of a red herring. The issue is not lack of a ground line (horses jump fences with no ground line all day long)…but making sure there is not a false ground line (which can be created by a shadow). so this does need to be examined.

But regardless, no solid ground line will save a truly bad ride. If you push a horse (or a horse rushes) on a flat unbalanced stride to a wrong distance…the horse may chip and not be able to gets its knees up. We have all seen horses step on ground lines when a rider got in the way.

”‹”‹”‹
I personally don’t like fences with a lip (of any type and size) and when I see them in schooling or on courses give them a ton of respect. But I don’t know what research has gone into them…so not sure If my dislike is founded or just personal. I know from personal I’ve had horses catch a toe on lips before…and that is not a good feeling.

[Jealoushe]

Please take this comment as it in regards to the discussion and not an insult to Kat. While myself I am a big advocate of researching the fences that cause falls, there is no denying this rider in particular was in way over her head. I watched some of her YouTube videos last night, and in one going Training in SJ, the entire ride is a mess. That horse should never have been moved up beyond Training until the rider and horse had some major gaps filled.

So again we ask, who is going to start holding coaches and riders responsible. Eventing is such a sport that we can “go it alone” and go all the way to 5* without a coach if we wanted! Then there are those like me, part time students I refer to it. Where we take a lesson here and there willy nilly when we have time and can afford it, since we have to drive at least 1 1/2hrs for any decent instruction. So when your coach sees you in a lesson once a month and thinks you look ready, do they really truly know if you are? Can they gauge your status from a few views a month?

I used to hate the idea of being required to have a coach, but honestly to me it seems requiring a certified coach at Training and above, with so many hours required per year might help things.

[JER]

@RAyers

Tried it. Got sick watching play back.

And I thought eventers had strong stomachs.

[Jealoushe]

@MissCoco

Thank you for this explanation about the danger of this fence, as I also was under the impression (from vaguely remember articles posted on various threads here) that tables were considered a “safe” fence type supported by data.
It makes logical sense to me that due to their shape/width they might be more dangerous to have a fall at, even if statistically they are less likely to be the cause of falls.

Does anyone know of research that tracked both falls at certain fence types and types/outcomes of falls?

I posted the FEI data on it a few pages back.

[JER]

@Jealoushe

I used to hate the idea of being required to have a coach, but honestly to me it seems requiring a certified coach at Training and above, with so many hours required per year might help things.

The rider rode with a coach, who was almost certainly certified in Canada.

The rider rode with that coach for 8 years. Since before she had Kerry.

What do you do about that?

[RAyers]

@JER

And I thought eventers had strong stomachs.

You never realize how much horses toss their heads around and raise and drop them when jumping, lift to get a better 3D view of the fence then “drop” and stretch across, then lots of tossing and random everything until the next fence.

Of course that could just be my horses and the way I ride.

[Jealoushe]

@JER

The rider rode with a coach, who was almost certainly certified in Canada.

The rider rode with that coach for 8 years. Since before she had Kerry.

What do you do about that?

I know! I think her coach failed her, and was delusional if she thought she was at the appropriate level. Im going to check now if she is certified.

ETA: She is certified high performance coach. That’s not good.

[JER]

Her coach’s bio from her website:

Former Canadian Equestrian Team Member, Tricia is a High Performance Coach, the top coaching designation with Equestrian Canada. Tricia is one of only 3 High Performance Coaches in Alberta in any discipline.

”‹With over 40 years of coaching experience, Tricia has a passion for helping students of all levels to improve their communication with their horses and develop their equestrian skills. Her coaching style is based on rider/horse dynamics and extensive knowledge of equine behaviour.

Tricia was a recognized Equestrian Canada Dressage Judge for over 10 years, a Cross-Country Course Designer and a Level II Technical Delegate with Eventing Canada.

[JER]

@RAyers

You never realize how much horses toss their heads around and raise and drop them when jumping, lift to get a better 3D view of the fence then “drop” and stretch across, then lots of tossing and random everything until the next fence.

Of course that could just be my horses and the way I ride.

I had one horse - safest jumper ever - who enjoyed being the ultimate rubber-necker on XC. ‘Oh, look at that over there!’

But he always paid attention to his approach and didn’t touch anything on XC or in SJ.

In dressage, his rubber-necking didn’t earn him much in the way of points but who cares when the horse is such a great, safe jumper.

[Denali6298]

@JER

The rider rode with a coach, who was almost certainly certified in Canada.

The rider rode with that coach for 8 years. Since before she had Kerry.

What do you do about that?

Honestly there was nothing that could have been done except the yellow card at Rebecca. I’m still curious why that didn’t happen. I doubt if the TDs, GJ or fellow competitors spoke up at the time they would have been listened to.

[DunByMistake]

@Puffergrrl

I would even posit that the fence in question could cause 2 problems.
As Jeloushe and others have mentioned, it could be read as having no groundline and suck horses and riders in too close.
Or, as kind of shown in my rough markup below, it could also be misread with a false groundline quite a ways in front. It looks like the plants are intended to give the horses a proper groundline to judge, but they aren’t a color that horses can distinguish from the ground or the grass, especially with some of the shadows from the tree line probably moving throughout the day. Leaving early in front of a wide table has to be dangerous.

I listened to pretty much the entire FEI Eventing Seminar from earlier this year and the factors contributing to rotational falls were heavily discussed. Leaving early is not actually strongly associated with rotational falls. If a horse leaves early and comes down in middle of fence with back legs, it is more likely a rider will be thrown clear and horse will slide off fence. They will likely also fall but not a true rotational fall. However, if a horse gets in too deep and does not have sufficient time/space to lift knees to clear the front side of fence, then a rotational fall is likely. I would hazard a guess in this case that mare got in too deep - likely a combo of too much speed and false groundline on that fence. She did not have enough time and space to clear her knees over the lip on the table.

I wrote a more lengthy post on what I learned during seminar that I could find if you’re interested.

[sassparella]

Back around 2008, it was recommended that we throw straw (or hay) bales in front of tables. I’ve often wondered how many bales a life was worth.

[sherian]

@JER

The rider rode with a coach, who was almost certainly certified in Canada.

The rider rode with that coach for 8 years. Since before she had Kerry.

What do you do about that?

personal experience is certification in Canada has little bearing on horsemanship or common sense - I have known excellent certified coaches and ones that I wouldn’t let supervise a kid on a rocking horse in a padded room. So not a fan of mandatory coaching - I do like the idea of compulsary skills testing and a review panel as part of the criteria to move up into the upper levels.

[awesomenessity]

Some videos of the coach:
https://streamable.com/m46ca

I will withhold much commentary but I think “culture of safety” needs to be considered when evaluating this accident.

[Denali6298]

nvm

[RainWeasley]

@Jealoushe

Added a coop, since a coop can also have a ground rail and at least one death occurred at a coop.

I just don’t get the fight against a ground line. No ground line doesn’t scare the horse, it confuses it. It scares the rider, so who cares if a table isnt as scary.

Yes okay I absolutely agree, those look like they would be so much easier for the horse to judge. Even in the helmet cam video, the straw in front of that table just looked blended in to the ground and shadows to me. I would have had a hard time knowing where to jump from as a human (if I could jump that high).

[bornfreenowexpensive]

@Jealoushe

I used to hate the idea of being required to have a coach, but honestly to me it seems requiring a certified coach at Training and above, with so many hours required per year might help things.

isn’t that the crux of the problem (often with all riding). My self…I rode at a higher level than now when I knew (and understood) a lot less. (BUT i was lucky and had very good coaching for my entire riding career). Then you gather enough education to start to realize how much you don’t know! How do you evaluate good advice or good coaching if you don’t have the base knowledge?

And too many who don’t listen. Even with ICP certifications there are good coaches and not. Differences of opinions. And even still…some very very good riders with very good coaching still have had fatal falls. It is something to think about.

And if you are a rider in your position…I think you do have to do a lot of self regulation and be very honest with yourself. The fact that you ask those questions says you already do…but what about those who don’t even realize they should ask such questions?

[awesomenessity]

Some videos of the trainer:
https://streamable.com/zb5dl
https://streamable.com/e9xtq
https://streamable.com/9rq62

I will withhold much commentary but I think the “culture of safety” surrounding this accident was… poor.

[Jealoushe]

@bornfreenowexpensive

And if you are a rider in your position…I think you do have to do a lot of self regulation and be very honest with yourself. The fact that you ask those questions says you already do…but what about those who don’t even realize they should ask such questions?

Exactly. What about them?? Need some sort of third party - NO PASS the start box - review for these levels

[Jealoushe]

@awesomenessity

Some videos of the trainer:
https://streamable.com/zb5dl
https://streamable.com/e9xtq
https://streamable.com/9rq62

I will withhold much commentary but I think the “culture of safety” surrounding this accident was… poor.

Agreed. Pictures of them with their horses by the trailer in flip flops too. I know thats not the biggest issue in the world but it is the culture of safety as you mention.