Another rider death

[Jackie_Cochran]

There are times when I read about the rider/horse deaths, that I now consider eventing an extremely expensive form of suicide.

I KNOW that most riders and horses make it around without dying, but when top level riders and horses die month after month I think that the WHOLE eventing process should be reconsidered–starting with the so-called safety seat that does not seem to help in keeping horses and riders safe when the you-know-what hits the fan, and then going on to fences that horses would never experience in real cross-country riding, like fox hunting.

This is only my own very humble opinion, and it is obvious to me that no one agrees with me about this. I am just sick and tired of biting my tongue with every death cross-country.

[enjoytheride]

@RAyers

We designed and tested a table over 15 years ago in response to the year when 15 riders were killed internationally. When we posited this design to USEF it was stated it was too expensive for as little as it would be used.

JER and others are spot on in their assessment of the ruling bodies and their lack of engagement. Mostly it is to protect or develop new revenue streams. I see it in the medical device industry as well.

Respectfully, 15 years ago is a long time and many sports are now more interested in safety. Especially eventing. Plus, officials have come and gone. Perhaps sending that proposal out again, with updated technology and research would produce a different result.

[dr_j]

This is devastating yet again,condolences to all of the rider’s family and friends.

I am past the age of taking these risks but I do breed horses for the discipline and help support an upper level rider. I worry every time she goes out, and question my “contribution” if any type of tragedy would occur.

I have an honest question - why tables at all? Is their contribution to the sport outweighed by their serious issues? We all know they are not the only obstacle that causes issues but they certainly seem to be more problematic than most.

[RAyers]

Enjoytheride, I can see that you are not familiar with how safety in the work place or other endeavors actually occurs. Sports such as F1, MotoGP, etc., have been studying safety since the 1970s. It is not something new. Nor are you familiar with fence design and construction.

Additionally, 10 years ago we did the speed study. So, the equestrian governing bodies are rather lethargic when it comes to safety. They prefer tradition and money.

Table used to be considered the safest fences 20-30 years ago. What changed? The accident data from the FEI shows tables not as risky as other shapes.

[dr_j]

@RAyers

Table used to be considered the safest fences 20-30 years ago. What changed? The accident data from the FEI shows tables not as risky as other shapes.

Good to know.

[YEG]

The eventing community is small, especially her in Alberta. We are all reeling from the loss of Kat and Kerry. Just unbelievable.

I find it so hard to reconcile that this sport (as a whole) accepts that someone is going to die roughly once every couple of events. How is that acceptable? Honestly, I know it’s a risky sport, I know we take a risk every time we cross the street or get in a car, I know a horse can stumble over a cross pole, I know that the risk will never be zero, but we should not rest until we have ZERO deaths due to cross country course infrastructure.These are problems with SOLUTIONS. Seriously, get some universities to use this as a design problem for capstone engineering projects and we will have dozens of low cost, workable solutions within a couple months. The pace at which this is being approached by the governing bodies is absolutely glacial and unacceptable, and disrespectful to every eventer, living and dead.

Not usually a ranter but it’s raw and it should be- we should be outraged. We can do better by our horses and athletes.

[crosscreeksh]

@clivers

There was a rider death at Rocking Horse today. Im not posting the riders info yet as don’t see an official statement from USEA but my coach was there. I’m SO [edit] ANGRY for so many reasons and I have to say that the fact that we let the show continue every time this happens is disgusting. This is a recreational pursuit and no one NEEDS to finish the event when a body is still warm. I love this sport and am involved in nearly every facet but I [edit] hate it tonight.

It’s come that “they” consider a death of a horse or rider…a little bump in the schedule…DISGUSTING to die for a sport!!

[Archer]

@clivers

Collapsible tables are in use here and there but not consistently. There are two different designs that I’m aware of that have been used in competition. The argument a member of the safety committee gave me a few years ago was cost. She wanted to say that the Eventing community didn’t want to fund the changes. I wanted to slap her. Some of you may remember a poll thread on here about willingness. That was me wanting to show her that we were willing. She and the fake experts on the committee didn’t care.

Mim clip table: https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/mim-clip-table-belton-horse-trials-2019-683156

Clivers: Could you link to this poll/thread? I tried to find it, but couldn’t. Thanks!

[crosscreeksh]

We have a “Homebred, TB” competing at this level with his owner/trainer…I hate to hear before he is competing…just at the end of the day when they both LIVED!! “Sporting competitions” should not cause nausea in the families and breeders!!

[Willesdon]

If people go to the British Eventing website pages on Safety, it is possible to see a 76% reduction in fatalities and serious injuries since the “good old days” of 2002-2003 and, similarly, the FEI pages show 36 rotational falls in 2017, in international competitions around the world. Interestingly, the most recent safety data shows that FEI competition has higher fall rates than national ones run over exactly the same course. No one yet knows why.

Tables, at least under FEI and BE rules, must have a clear ground line and a sloping top to ensure a horse can read the question clearly. These rules were put in place to make tables safer as too many falls used to happen at them. As a result, riders now deem a table to be a galloping fence.

Riding horses is inherently a risky occupation. We all know that and take steps to mitigate those risks. So to claim that the people who make the rules, run the competitions, build the courses and, indeed, ride the horses “just don’t care about safety” is extremely unfair to them all. It is patently untrue.

My condolences to all those connected to this tragic death.

[Xctrygirl]

See now I’m torn. I am all in favor of blaming the jump if it’s to blame, the rider if they’re to blame, the horse if it’s to blame or the course designers if they’re to blame.

I read the reports yesterday. Talked to a friend who competed there and basically slept on it, sad for all.

Today however is a different story. More details have been researched and come out including recent and past results and past videos have emerged.

It’s funny how when we hear about these tragedies we somehow default to thinking that the horse and rider were competent and safe at their level and bad stuff just happened to them. But going over what I know today is a different story.

I see a rider who was pushing for goals, on paper. I see a horse that was totally genuine but not always being asked for the right things by it’s rider on video. I see a rider who is completing the tasks asked in our sport but who is definitely not 100% skilled at the underlying skillsets that we need to be a well rounded event rider. And if we’re being honest with ourselves I could see this type of accident happening to this particular combination. Now of course I have hindsight on my side.

But the bigger issue that we’re have to figure out is how do we watch xc in real time, see combinations that you’ve looked at your friends watching with you and said something along the lines of “wow… I’m amazed they got through that…or didn’t fall etc.” There are riders that compete at their levels that we KNOW are just a matter of time until something happens. It’s been true all the way back to the 80’s.

But now I’m asking beyond promoting safer courses what do we do to get through to the riders who aren’t safe themselves? Can we come up with ways to approach a fellow eventer and explain that we’re worried they’re going to get hurt. That they’re lacking some needed skills and that even though they were clear we are worried for them? Because in my view that’s the one part of this whole mess that we’ve never found a solid answer for.

Emily

[xcjumper]

@Xctrygirl

But now I’m asking beyond promoting safer courses what do we do to get through to the riders who aren’t safe themselves? Can we come up with ways to approach a fellow eventer and explain that we’re worried they’re going to get hurt. That they’re lacking some needed skills and that even though they were clear we are worried for them? Because in my view that’s the one part of this whole mess that we’ve never found a solid answer for.

Emily

THIS…How do we do this? I’m in this position now and not sure how to handle it. Take it up with the mother? the trainer? All I see is this person going in a bad direction every time I see them ride.

[enjoytheride]

The rider isn’t even buried yet. Wait until after the funeral before you blame the parent or trainer. I can’t even begin to imagine how they feel right now and I can’t imagine if they were to come across this thread in their grief.

We throw up our hands and say we can’t do anything because the officials refuse to change things, but then we attack the parents 24 hours after their kid dies.

[BigRuss1996]

@Xctrygirl

See now I’m torn. I am all in favor if blaming the jump if it’s to blame, the rider if they’re to blame, the horse if it’s to blame or the course designers if they’re to blame.

I read the reports yesterday. Talked to a friend who competed there and basically slept on it, sad for all.

Today however is a different story. More details have been researched and come out including recent and past results and past videos have emerged.

It’s funny how when we hear about these tragedies we somehow default to thinking that the horse and rider were competent and safe at their level and bad stuff just happened to them. But going over what I know today is a different story.

I see a rider who was pushing for goals, on paper. I see a horse that was totally genuine but not always being asked for the right things by it’s rider on video. I see a rider who is completing the tasks asked in our sport but who is definitely not 100% skilled at the underlying skillsets that we need to be a well rounded event rider. And if we’re being honest with ourselves I could see this type of accident happening to this particular combination. Now of course I have hindsight on my side.

But the bigger issue that we’re have to figure out is how do we watch xc in real time, see combinations that you’ve looked at your friends watching with you and said something along the lines of “wow… I’m amazed they got through that…or didn’t fall etc.” There are riders that compete at their levels that we KNOW are just a matter of time until something happens. It’s been true all the way back to the 80’s.

But now I’m asking beyond promoting safer courses what do we do to get through to the riders who aren’t safe themselves? Can we come up with ways to approach a fellow eventer and explain that we’re worried they’re going to get hurt. That they’re lacking some needed skills and that even though they were clear we are worried for them? Because in my view that’s the one part of this whole mess that we’ve never found a solid answer for.

Emily

I agree but isn’t this what the USEA safety committee of riders that are suppose to call people regarding dangerous riding are suppose to be doing?
I’ve seen people who have come for lessons with an Olympic rider and have been told that their kids horse isn’t suitable for what they want to do or that they aren’t safe and they get pissed and go to another trainer and keep competing it so it doesn’t seem to change anything even when it’s a prominent rider telling you you are under mounted or that you need to stay back a level or that you are unsafe. So how do get them to listen or really care?

[enjoytheride]

@Willesdon

If people go to the British Eventing website pages on Safety, it is possible to see a 76% reduction in fatalities and serious injuries since the “good old days” of 2002-2003 and, similarly, the FEI pages show 36 rotational falls in 2017, in international competitions around the world. Interestingly, the most recent safety data shows that FEI competition has higher fall rates than national ones run over exactly the same course. No one yet knows why.

Tables, at least under FEI and BE rules, must have a clear ground line and a sloping top to ensure a horse can read the question clearly. These rules were put in place to make tables safer as too many falls used to happen at them. As a result, riders now deem a table to be a galloping fence.

Riding horses is inherently a risky occupation. We all know that and take steps to mitigate those risks. So to claim that the people who make the rules, run the competitions, build the courses and, indeed, ride the horses “just don’t care about safety” is extremely unfair to them all. It is patently untrue.

My condolences to all those connected to this tragic death.

This I agree with. Saying it’s just not worth saying anything because the powers that be don’t care is unfair and untrue.

[anon38350891]

Here is video of this pair August 2019, with horse’s hoofs mere centimeters above these solid jumps, horse jumping level, and a sideways canter with head thrashing more or less throughout. Especially look at 1:23. Sadly, I don’t think this horse would have lasted much longer. I HATE saying that, I know anyone can have a bad ride, but other videos are similar. And I am terribly sad for the rider’s family. But something here looks very wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNMeiWLZFoM

[YEG]

@Xctrygirl what is it exactly that you know today that makes you think this pair shouldn’t have been in this competition?

Whether you think they were capable or not, no one, not even pro riders, should die if they have an off day, or if they aren’t 100% foot perfect, because no one is perfect all the time, and neither are horses.

[ladyj79]

There was a point a few years back when three of the top four riders in the world were in the hospital with potentially life/career ending injuries simultaneously

The problem ultimately isn’t horse and/or rider competency

[enjoytheride]

JESUS CHRIST. What an appalling case of armchair quarterbacking. This horse wouldn’t have lasted much longer? What a disgusting thing to say. This person has parents and friends. Who haven’t even gotten a chance to say goodbye. Have you no respect?

Digging up old videos just to say you saw it coming.

[seabreeze]

@enjoytheride

We throw up our hands and say we can’t do anything because the officials refuse to change things, but then we attack the parents 24 hours after their kid dies.

I could be wrong, but I think xcjumper was saying that s/he is in the position now of having to have a frank discussion with a rider that probably isn’t going to keep the rider from continuing down a dangerous path. I didn’t read his/her response to mean that s/he was talking about the rider who passed away yesterday and her family.