Another rider death

[Denali6298]

@Alterforme

In the H/J world, people like to win. I think the majority of riders show in the division or height that will give them the most success and bragging rights. It’s not cool to move up & not place well show after show.

I would think most eventers feel the same way. Why move up if you & the horse aren’t winning. Do the event show encourage people to stay in a division for end of year championships? Or points towards finals?

We have the AEC’s. Of course we like to win. However, if you watch the video of the rider and then watch the coach, you get the impression riding like that is their normal.

You most certainly can win an event with a good enough dressage score, be a complete dumpster fire in XC (I believe the Rebecca ride was a double clear despite being a dumpster fire) and do well enough in SJ.

Hunters are judged on style. So it needs to be pretty and soft. That’s what wins. Dumpster fires won’t win. However, we can point out horse and rider combinations in eventing that are just flat out scary going XC who still win, and move up.

Dumpster fires in SJ don’t win. Who was that guy who was sanction by the FEI who’s horse punched out multiple jumps? Why did he move up?

It’s not fair to compare.

[Blugal]

I notice so many of the suggestions in reaction to this tragedy are for someone else to do something.

Change the rules, make the officials responsible, tell someone they’re riding badly, fix the decorations, etc.

None of this costs us personally. So it’s really easy to tell ourselves that this is a great idea and someone else should implement it.

But how about we all DO something, ourselves? Money is probably the big one.

What if the $500k that is the fundraising goal for frangible tables went to rebooting the production of the Exo? What if that became a mandatory piece of safety equipment? The patent doesn’t benefit any corporation; this could be a non-partisan multinational effort. The pushback would be from traditional vest manufacturers. Well, human safety should take priority over profit and sponsorship.

[Denali6298]

I would donate to get the EXO back on the market. I won’t do it for frangible devices when we have course designers admitting to creating stupid questions because the jump has frangible pins.

[banmharcach]

@Denali6298

You most certainly can win an event with a good enough dressage score, be a complete dumpster fire in XC (I believe the Rebecca ride was a double clear despite being a dumpster fire) and do well enough in SJ.

Hunters are judged on style. So it needs to be pretty and soft. That’s what wins. Dumpster fires won’t win. However, we can point out horse and rider combinations in eventing that are just flat out scary going XC who still win, and move up.

Unfortunately the score sheets really don’t give an unambiguous impression of safety vs competitiveness (not the same as competence). Someone with a drive-by on a skinny could be far safer than the double clear XC.

Many people go to eventing precisely to avoid the subjective judging of the hunters & straight dressage. It becomes more a test of horse/rider vs course & there is a satisfaction in the safe completion (see many amateurs at Badminton in past years for example) of a particular event/level. Are they setting out to lose–of course not but they shouldn’t be decried as being unsafe because of a monster dressage score or a game of pick-up sticks in the SJ when they can clearly show competence XC. How that can be predicted though to avoid tragedy is the question.

[JER]

@subk

I find it the height of irony that in an effort for “safer sport” we have spent a great deal of resources requiring uninvolved third parties to take responsibility in recognizing and reporting harassment that may lead to emotional damage, and yet when it comes to real physical danger we have big name riders shirking their duties onto out spoken amateurs to do the job they won’t.

What if we spent half the resources we’ve spent on that type of education on a “see something, say something” program for dangerous riding?

I do think we need to make sure that people aren’t afraid to speak up.

Dangerous riding is like pornography in that we all know it when we see it. We can’t be afraid that we don’t have enough standing or prestige to report it.

But it follows that the officials will have to listen to us and have open minds to these reports.

Also, I don’t feel the BNs who contacted me were so much shirking their responsibility as they were afraid of backlash or of the rider finding out who raised the alarm.

Then there’s the matter of expressing oneself articulately and persuasively. That’s what I do for a living, often with visual accompaniment. So you might see them seeking out an outspoken amateur but it’s also true that they’re seeking out someone who’s ghostwritten controversial op-eds for major media outlets as well as countless other persuasive writing projects. Asking a professional to present your case is never a bad idea.

[Auburn]

@JER

Over the years, I’ve been contacted on occasion by parties seeking to save a rider from themselves.

Maybe I knew the requesters IRL, maybe I didn’t. Either way, they came to me for help. I think it’s clear on this BB that I’m not afraid to speak my mind, I’m not afraid to have unpopular opinions and I’m not afraid to take action.

On these occasions, I was asked to contact officials and provide evidence of a rider’s lack of safety on their horse. You do some show photo searches, you get the comp record, you dig around and find some pics of the horse flailing over a jump that’s beyond their scope, etc.

I actually don’t know the outcomes of these efforts except for one, where the rider ‘decided’ not to enter the comp and did not compete the horse again. This was a positive outcome.

My takeaways from this:

1. Even BN eventing people are afraid to go to officials with their concerns. I know this because I was intervening on the part of some people whose names are known by everyone in eventing.

2. There are some really good, really concerned people in eventing that really want to prevent riders (to whom they may not have a connection) from harming themselves and their horses.

3. This doesn’t happen often enough. We need to look out for each other.

I, too am very annoying at Recognized events. I rode my mare, Tessie’s Brite Star, at the BN level, because I was getting older. I tried Novice, but did not come off of cross country shouting “WhooHoo!”, so I rode in the Open divisions. I did this, because the Rider Division folks kept asking me, “When are you going to move up?” This is an example of Rider accountability, by knowing my limitations.

Whenever I saw an issue like no brush for a ground line at the bottom of a table, a ditch for BN that was not correct, as per the USEA rulebook, a maxed out Novice jump which was less than one stride from the water, going uphill, for a BN Championship jump, It measured at 3’3", from where the horse would take off. For these issues, I went to the Rider Rep, or directly to the TD. There are only a couple of TD’s, who took me seriously. For the Championship, they told me that, “You can pay to go down to regular BN.” :mad: Level creep needs to stop!

Last year, due to my horse having several lameness issues, I spent over 38 hours volunteering as a jump judge. The jump judges at the KHP are the most knowledgeable that I have seen anywhere. We do call in dangerous riding to Control. The TD’s will pull up riders and talk to them. However, they usually do this, after the rider has completed the course. I believe that it should be done sooner on the course, before something terrible can happen.

If TD’s and CD’s are not held accountable, then this sport will be in serious trouble.

If the PTB do not develop a better system to monitor who moves up, then we are in serious trouble.

If we cannot hold coaches and trainers accountable for letting their students dictate when they move up, then we are in serious trouble.

Whomever suggested that the money being spent on carved animals and jumps, be spent on safer jumps, is spot on correct! We do not need those types of jumps. We need some people with common sense making the Rules for Eventing. Is that the USEF?

I joined the USEA this year. I probably will not in the future, unless things change for the better. This whole mess makes me sad, because I have loved this sport for over 50 years.

[subk]

@Blugal

I notice so many of the suggestions in reaction to this tragedy are for someone else to do something.

Change the rules, make the officials responsible, tell someone they’re riding badly, fix the decorations, etc.

The rules already exist with protocols in place for officials to follow and officials are already responsible for applying the rules. If we aren’t demanding for our own safety protocols to be followed the rest of the hoopla is pointless.

Thanks, but I’ve already fought these battles, donated funds, and volunteered. I’m 56 and have crappy knees. I have a nice young horse that I may putz around the lower levels and do some dressage on, but this isn’t my sport anymore. If you guys want it you’re going to have to fight for it. Some of us have been fighting for years–and obviously without much success if we can’t get officials to even follow the rules and proceedures we worked so hard to have implemented.

@Blugal

What if the $500k that is the fundraising goal for frangible tables went to rebooting the production of the Exo? What if that became a mandatory piece of safety equipment? The patent doesn’t benefit any corporation; this could be a non-partisan multinational effort. The pushback would be from traditional vest manufacturers. Well, human safety should take priority over profit and sponsorship.

If the patent is available for fair use then the push should be to existing vest manufactures to make it and sell it. If the rules made them mandatory (in X number of years) then they will sell enough to be financially viable to produce. Are you ready to require a $500 (or whatever it is) vest to compete?

[bornfreenowexpensive]

@JER

One potential way to make eventing safer is to either get rid of the dressage entirely or make it a pass/fail third phase.

If that happened, then there’d be little value to a horse who had good dressage but was iffy on XC. You’d seek out the excellent, safe XC horse first and worry about his collected gaits after, if at all.

I’d like this sport…I’m fairly certain this was the original order for eventing (long long long ago). But then eventing had a lot more endurance factor…which I also wouldn’t mind seeing again…even if it mean eventing left the Olympics.

[AskMyAccountant.17]

I can forward a contact to product design for WW (manufacturer of EXO) and will forward you the email for who can speak to their production team. I have a very small but niche social media platform and have contacts with WoofWoor distributors, enough they send me products to review. (Emphasize little) Secondly, please reach out to WoofWear and Toklat, one of their largest distributors, via Facebook and Instagram. This is something I have done, already and got an immediate response this week that my concern was being sent to product design. Your voice matters so much, and even more when you can vouch for not just your experience in the eventing community, but reach to a social audience which you have. You have a Facebook with x # of friends and you have a voice on one of the most prominent bulletin boards… Followers equate to dollars, and that’s a trigger for brands to re-release a product.

[Blugal]

@subk

If the patent is available for fair use then the push should be to existing vest manufactures to make it and sell it.

Great point!

@subk

If the rules made them mandatory (in X number of years) then they will sell enough to be financially viable to produce. Are you ready to require a $500 (or whatever it is) vest to compete?

Yes. It’s disingenuous to think this is the real problem, when conventional vests are $300+, air vests that so many wanted to purchase are $500+, and all the other costs that we so willingly pay to event including entries, transport, lessons, farrier, tack etc.

[kashmere]

One thousand disclaimers: I am not an eventer. Nothing even close to it since my pony club rally days. I have connections to the discipline and I’m Canadian, and that’s what brought me to this thread. I’m completely ill at Kat and Kerry On’s deaths, and at the thought of any of the gorgeous, dedicated, wonderful eventers I know (or don’t know) suffering the same fate. I’m a dressage rider, crosstraining with cavaletti and doing a LOT of hacking out are the closest analogues to eventing I do nowadays.

With my lack of expertise established firmly - here’s an idea:

XC courses have an optimal time, and therefore an optimal speed, correct? And if I’m not mistaken, those times and speeds are intended as a relatively steady pace, meaning if you have 2 mins for a course the idea is not to go like a bat out of hell for 80% of it and then dawdle so you’re not too quick.

Basically: yes you’ll need to power up and yes you’ll need to slow down at various points, but a consistent pace that is close to the optimal speed seems to be a good indicator that the horse ratable and that the rider has their stuff together. It therefore seems as though that might be a good, objective metric to measure safety.

So what about employing the VAST ingenuity in wearable tech over the last few years to measure rider speed while on course and thereby give officials an objective reason to card and/or pull riders from the course.

*******fleshing it out a bit: if optimum speed is, for example, 450 MPM. Establish a “green” window of speed that is acceptable for the course. Is that 440-460 MPM? An actual eventer could likely make a better estimate than I could. If a rider is within that “green” window, then they’re good (at least in this respect. of course there are other things that could be going wrong)

Then establish the danger zones and CLEAR, OBJECTIVE consequences for them. What is a dangerous speed to approach a fence at that level? Is it 470 MPM? If a horse approaches a fence at or above that speed, the rider gets a yellow card afterward. If they do it again, they’re eliminated.

This also provides a way of giving that ‘technical’ scoring element that is challenging in XC. You could accrue penalty points for the amount of time spent outside of the “green” window. Or maybe it’s more appropriate only to accrue the penalties for time spent above it. I know there are already penalties for being under or over time - but this would be about maintaining consistent pace.******************

If one can maintain a solid, consistent pace it seems one is more likely to be a) actually capable of riding at that level b) on a horse who is ratable and therefore likely actually prepared for the level and, most importantly, c) able to safely approach the fences on course.

******Please remember, I am NOT an eventer. The details are very likely way off, but as you evaluate, try to evaluate the CONCEPT, because based on a lot of what has been said, there is merit to the CONCEPT at work here.

[subk]

For more sad irony:

Here’s an excerpt of the Safety Committee Open Forum the week before the dumpster fire of a XC round at Rebecca Farm.

“Sarah Broussard, Chair of the Rider Safety Subcommittee, said they have been working on revamping the safety coordinators manual to add more clarity and condense it. They are keeping an eye on concussions – how to monitor them, the long term effects, and how to prevent them from happening. They are also hoping to rework the watch list as many have heard of it, but most have never seen it. The list would help identify dangerous riding and work on getting riders on track with the education they need.”

Ms. Broussard’s family owns Rebbeca Farm.

https://useventing.com/news-media/news/video-safety-committee-open-forum

[Puffergrrl]

@Alterforme

In the H/J world, people like to win. I think the majority of riders show in the division or height that will give them the most success and bragging rights. It’s not cool to move up & not place well show after show.

I would think most eventers feel the same way. Why move up if you & the horse aren’t winning. Do the event show encourage people to stay in a division for end of year championships? Or points towards finals?

Oh we have a two-fold problem here in H/J land. We have “the fearful, talent-less amateur,” as Katie Prudant coined the extremely rich who can buy their way into the big leagues with nice horses in spite of bad riding and poor work ethic. Then we have the new levels so low they’re just little speed bumps, where people rip around so fast, if the horse stumbles there’s going to be a serious injury.

Athina Onassis crashed and killed her amazing white mare Camille Z in a 5* grand prix back in 2014.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

@Jealoushe

I think you may get people investing a lot of time in dressage and SJ then and not so much on fitness and XC schooling which would be a disaster.

Dressage I dont agree with. Minimum SJ score, I agree with. 4 rails and no XC, I could totally get behind.

I wouldn’t at all. I can think of several extremely good xc horses…5* level horses…that event I would ride who were not super competitive in dressage and jumped SJ by Braille…multiple rails…but incredible and safe xc horses.

I’ve also had many damn scary SJ rounds…but left the rails all up. It isn’t always about being competitive…and you can only get xc experience going xc. I don’t want to make MORE emphasis on scores and competitiveness nor more focus on SJ and Dressage. I don’t think that is the answer.

[Gardenhorse]

Personally, I am totally against the idea if getting rid of the dressage phase or making it pass/fail. What does pass/fail dressage even mean? One of the aspects of eventing that I like is the comprehensive aspect. It is challenging to try and be competent in three different areas. If you just want to go cross country without the other pieces, you can go fox hunting or do hunter paces. Or do these new “cross derbies” that appear to be popping up all over (at least in Area 2).

[Jealoushe]

@kashmere

One thousand disclaimers: I am not an eventer. Nothing even close to it since my pony club rally days. I have connections to the discipline and I’m Canadian, and that’s what brought me to this thread. I’m completely ill at Kat and Kerry On’s deaths, and at the thought of any of the gorgeous, dedicated, wonderful eventers I know (or don’t know) suffering the same fate. I’m a dressage rider, crosstraining with cavaletti and doing a LOT of hacking out are the closest analogues to eventing I do nowadays.

With my lack of expertise established firmly - here’s an idea:

XC courses have an optimal time, and therefore an optimal speed, correct? And if I’m not mistaken, those times and speeds are intended as a relatively steady pace, meaning if you have 2 mins for a course the idea is not to go like a bat out of hell for 80% of it and then dawdle so you’re not too quick.

Basically: yes you’ll need to power up and yes you’ll need to slow down at various points, but a consistent pace that is close to the optimal speed seems to be a good indicator that the horse ratable and that the rider has their stuff together. It therefore seems as though that might be a good, objective metric to measure safety.

So what about employing the VAST ingenuity in wearable tech over the last few years to measure rider speed while on course and thereby give officials an objective reason to card and/or pull riders from the course.

*******fleshing it out a bit: if optimum speed is, for example, 450 MPM. Establish a “green” window of speed that is acceptable for the course. Is that 440-460 MPM? An actual eventer could likely make a better estimate than I could. If a rider is within that “green” window, then they’re good (at least in this respect. of course there are other things that could be going wrong)

Then establish the danger zones and CLEAR, OBJECTIVE consequences for them. What is a dangerous speed to approach a fence at that level? Is it 470 MPM? If a horse approaches a fence at or above that speed, the rider gets a yellow card afterward. If they do it again, they’re eliminated.

This also provides a way of giving that ‘technical’ scoring element that is challenging in XC. You could accrue penalty points for the amount of time spent outside of the “green” window. Or maybe it’s more appropriate only to accrue the penalties for time spent above it. I know there are already penalties for being under or over time - but this would be about maintaining consistent pace.******************

If one can maintain a solid, consistent pace it seems one is more likely to be a) actually capable of riding at that level b) on a horse who is ratable and therefore likely actually prepared for the level and, most importantly, c) able to safely approach the fences on course.

******Please remember, I am NOT an eventer. The details are very likely way off, but as you evaluate, try to evaluate the CONCEPT, because based on a lot of what has been said, there is merit to the CONCEPT at work here.

There has been a lot of research on speed. The speed is the not the issue the but ability to ride correctly at the speed. We can already judge the speed, it was seen on some courses the horses are at 700mpm + and others at 300 mpm. This is what has happened to our sport with the change in courses.

The issue is, people like MJ and Chris Bartle can ride the course in this manner and it is entirely safe.

[Jealoushe]

@bornfreenowexpensive

I wouldn’t at all. I can think of several extremely good xc horses…5* level horses…that event I would ride who were not super competitive in dressage and jumped SJ by Braille…multiple rails…but incredible and safe xc horses.

I’ve also had many damn scary SJ rounds…but left the rails all up. It isn’t always about being competitive…and you can only get xc experience going xc. I don’t want to make MORE emphasis on scores and competitiveness nor more focus on SJ and Dressage. I don’t think that is the answer.

Thats at 5* though, did they jump the same at Prelim?

[RacetrackReject]

It seems that eventing needs to start having M&M investigations when accidents occur and officials need to be held to some sort of responsibility for not using the available tools to mark/warn riders who have patterns of dangerous riding.

I’m not sure how the USEA/USEF is structured, but it seems that there should be a safety board that reviews not only the accident that causes injury or death at an event, but also goes back to review other events that the rider or horse participated in. That means not only looking at results, but seeking out video and photos and speaking to officials at those events.

For example, if this board was investigating this death and they watched the footage from Rebecca Farms, they would be contacting the officials there and asking tough questions about how this rider was not pulled or given a yellow card or even placed on the watch list. Make these officials a little accountable for what they are allowing, and maybe that will cause some of them to be more apt to use the tools that are there.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

@Jealoushe

Thats at 5* though, did they jump the same at Prelim?

Yup…Irish son of a bit%^. He totally knew the rails fell…and would touch each and every one. He had MORE than enough scope…He did not touch the xc fences.

I had another I could trot (and did) 4’9”… Super jumping horse…bored as snot with SJ below 4’3” and would always take a few rails over small courses.

[Alterforme]

I have been watching some CC you tube videos, to try to get more insight into this sport. ( Trying my hardest to avoid the CC crash videos.)
I Also read over the CC points deducted rules. Seems that as long as you don’t fall off, don’t have 1, 2 or 3 refusals or run outs & don’t go over or under time… you will have a clear round. ( please correct me if I’m wrong).

Some of the videos I have watched.  People have taken out the fence flags, some have basically crashed over jumps, but stayed on & then regrouped & continued. A few jumps even a rail was broken off & fell.    Shouldn’t this type of stuff, somehow be points added to your score?  

It seems to me that possibly some riders want to get to the other side of the jump at all costs.  If more penalties were given by things other then refusing, falling off & time... possibly some riders would be more cautious at each jump?

I’m just trying to figure out safety issues from a different  perspective. I’m not in the sport so I don’t know how this would work.