Another rider death

[EventerAJ]

Watching some videos, and spectating in real life, I do notice a weakness in many riders’ galloping ability. It was something you were more likely to learn in the long format days: how to put your hands down, cruise up out of the saddle, out of the horse’s way, and then pick him up approaching a fence.

I think it would do riders a lot of good to gallop some racehorses if they intend to ride at prelim or above. You learn to be comfortable at speed; you learn to balance at speed; and you learn ways to slow or influence a horse WITHOUT using your hands (leave them on the neck!). You must be fit with a strong leg. It exposes physical weakness and overriding. Think of it as “flat lessons” for XC. It gives you more tools that you won’t learn in an arena.

[JER]

@kiwichick

Actually it was extremely restrictive, it required a second person to help secure it on and get it off. They are exceptionally heavy, and fit was an issue. you need to be able to move on your horse xc, this is why the air vest is wildly popular.

The fact is it wasn’t popular because many riders who tried them, realised they would never comfortably be able to wear them.

This is not correct.

A single person can very easily get the EXO on and off. I posted a video of myself doing just that on here a couple of years ago. The video was <30 seconds long. I can repost if anyone would like to see it again.

The reason pro riders gave for not wearing it was weight. Kitty King would wear it on her young horses but not her top ones because she said the weight would put her at a disadvantage and she ‘couldn’t do that to her owners’. (I talked to numerous people connected with the EXO, from the developer to WoofWear to fitting reps.)

The weight of the EXO is about 2lbs (<1 kg) more than the total weight of the conventional + air vest so that’s a very weak argument. If you want to save weight that badly, there are other things you can do that will give you a more than 2 lb advantage, like switching to composite irons or a lightweight saddle.

In the EXO, the cage hangs away from your body and so it’s not restrictive that way.

[Marigold]

@AMWookey

No, you cannot do that and still respect sensitivity and the family. Notifications take TIME. It’s very easy to put two and two together and figure out who died. Riders right to know that someone died on course does not trump the right of the family to be informed in a compassionate manner.

Would you feel the same if it was a non jump related death? I.e. someone had a heart attack? Or if it was your family member and you found out via social media? It’s the same situation with accident pictures on the news and families finding out because they see a photo of the wreck. I am sorry, but I absolutely disagree that a riders right to know, trump’s the family’s right to be informed. These things take so much time.

On top of that- who at the hospital, where the rider died, is going to call and tell the competition in enough time? Does someone official from the competition go with them? Again, there are rights of the victim and their family.

This. 100% this. The rights of the family must come first in a scenario like this. For so many reasons, it is appropriate to appear as normal as possible so that the rumour mill is as contained as possible until those who need to know find out in a compassionate way.

The only possible reason riders may have a right to know immediately is if the fence that caused the issue is putting them at risk. We could get around this by saying any medical call to a fence should immediately result in that fence being taken off course, regardless of the outcome (thus, a course change will not trigger widespread rumours of the worst case scenario, which could be easily traced back to a certain horse/rider combination). Fences have been taken off course mid-event for many reasons in the past, so people would not automatically jump to a disastrous conclusion, but would still be kept safe (example: the 4*S at Plantation in 2013 when they could not figure out why so many horses were stumbling or falling in the water – no one was seriously injured but the fence was removed as the issues were unexplained).

@FlaxenChestnut

In my mind, the lack of certainty creates more opportunity for harmful rumours. And, news of a badly injured rider and the death of a horse would be enough for me to accept the cancellation of an event. I recognize others won’t feel the same.

Unfortunately, there aren’t many more harmful rumours than “a horse and rider have died”. Anything other than that information getting out before it should is an improvement.

[AnastasiaBeaverhousen]

Unfortunately, what it will take is a successful million dollar lawsuit before meaningful change will take place.

Right now, there is little incentive for anything beyond lip service. Riders keep entering and sponsors keep providing money.

As soon as someone talks serious litigation with a media savvy lawyer the PTB will sit up and take notice. Especially if they are singled out by name.

Perhaps someone should look into adding rider safety into Safe Sport.

They could add some investigators to look into riders and coaches who ignore the Dangerous Riding rules.

Granted it wouldnt stop dangerous riding at Non USEA shoes, but it would certainly keep them off the course at USEA shows.

I think it is definitely doable. There just has to be the will.

[Gestalt]

So the rider gets evacuated to a hospital with the horse carted off or screened because it’s dead and people aren’t going to be talking? I just don’t understand this (I’m not an eventer and in my world accidents and deaths cause everything to stop for investigations). Wasn’t the fact that a horse was killed and the rider removed enough to say “we’re calling this division off”? It isn’t enough to create an investigation? Gallop on, don’t mind the dead horse she’s just part of the decorations. :concern:

@JER I’d like to see your video please. I’ve never seen one of those vests.

[Gestalt]

@AnastasiaBeaverhousen

Unfortunately, what it will take is a successful million dollar lawsuit before meaningful change will take place.

Right now, there is little incentive for anything beyond lip service. Riders keep entering and sponsors keep providing money.

As soon as someone talks serious litigation with a media savvy lawyer the PTB will sit up and take notice. Especially if they are singled out by name.

I can definitely see this happening. I hope the people that can make a change will before it gets to lawsuits.

[Blugal]

Look up Mia Eriksson. That lawsuit was unsuccessful.

What it’s going to take (if I go with your premise) is Michael Jung dying.

Or, we could wake up now and decide this is unacceptable when it’s one of us, rather than waiting for…

[Denali6298]

@Gestalt

So the rider gets evacuated to a hospital with the horse carted off or screened because it’s dead and people aren’t going to be talking? I just don’t understand this (I’m not an eventer and in my world accidents and deaths cause everything to stop for investigations). Wasn’t the fact that a horse was killed and the rider removed enough to say “we’re calling this division off”? It isn’t enough to create an investigation? Gallop on, don’t mind the dead horse she’s just part of the decorations. :concern:

@JER I’d like to see your video please. I’ve never seen one of those vests.

I’ve never seen everything stop for an investigation. I’ve seen squadrons get grounded because a plane crashed and other squadrons kept flying. I’ve seen an entire type of aircraft get grounded, except those aboard a ship. I’ve never seen everything come to a screeching halt. Cars continue to drive despite crashes, planes keep flying, horse shows keep going. I think it would be highly irregular to stop.

No not stopping doesn’t stop the chatter and people will worry regardless. The riders are held until horse and rider are removed, the fence fixed etc. They don’t just throw a tarp and let people keep riding.

[Alterforme]

There have been instances in h/j land with footing & big classes cancelled due to safety of horse/rider.

https://www.chronofhorse.com/article/footing-concerns-addressed-during-tryon-international-equestrian-center-csi

I think with CC & the higher risk factors of that sport… if someone has a serious fall or death. The course/jump needs to be throughly reviewed prior to letting others jump it.

[Black_Points]

@rivenoak

I agree, but getting the EXO back on the market poses at least one major problem: fit.

I saw Gnep’s in person. If I remember correctly, it was one of the bigger sizes and he had to make modifications to enlarge it to fit him correctly. And he is a slender, male person.

As a female, with breasts, there was no way it would ever fit me. This would be a problem for many eventers: they’re female and not of the prepubescent body style.

I bought a EXO after seeing posts by GNEP, RAYERS, and JER back in 2004 or so. I am only 5’1" and 128 lbs and could not get the EXO to fit me properly. I corresponded with Rayers in text and photos and after employing his suggested changes, it fit better but still sat too high on my shoulders making us think that in a fall I could break my jaw. so it sits in the closet

Now however with 3D printing, I would hope that engineers and designers would be able to take body measurements of riders and from those, be able to 3D print the appropriate pieces to custom make EXOs.

I would love to have one that fit me properly

Mary in the north country of NY

[Gestalt]

@Denali6298

I’ve never seen everything stop for an investigation. I’ve seen squadrons get grounded because a plane crashed and other squadrons kept flying. I’ve seen an entire type of aircraft get grounded, except those aboard a ship. I’ve never seen everything come to a screeching halt. Cars continue to drive despite crashes, planes keep flying, horse shows keep going. I think it would be highly irregular to stop.

No not stopping doesn’t stop the chatter and people will worry regardless. The riders are held until horse and rider are removed, the fence fixed etc. They don’t just throw a tarp and let people keep riding.

Goodness you said the same thing I did but you make it sound like you aren’t.

[Blugal]

Here is a brief overview of the lawsuit filed by Mia Eriksson’s parents. Her trainer successfully defended it based on the liability waiver they signed. (I read the whole case. The horse did not have a confirmed concussion, that was a speculation.) https://www.lcwlegal.com/news/parents-cannot-sue-for-daughters-death-where-daughter-and-mother-signed-waiver-of-liability-agreement

Canadian Maya Hepworth became permanently disabled after a fall at an Alberta event. She sued, in part claiming the jump did not meet the correct dimensions for the level. The provincial and national federations, the TD, the course builder, the property owners were all defendants. I can’t find a link to the suit (only a skirmish about discovery), but again, this lawsuit was not successful.

[Denali6298]

@Gestalt

Goodness you said the same thing I did but you make it sound like you aren’t.

No we aren’t saying the same thing. Horse and rider get moved to hospitals wherever, the show keeps going. You made the statement of a dead horse laying there while people continue on course. My apologies if I misunderstood but the only time in my experience, that things stop, is for the people directly involved. Everything doesn’t stop.

For example, if the neighbor squadron puts a jet into the dirt, my squadron doesn’t stop flying. It doesn’t involve us. Over pressurization of a cockpit on deck resulting in a canopy explosion and almost killing two pilots resulted in the grounding of the F/18 for a week. Except my squadron wasn’t grounded because we were on a ship. So we kept on business as usual.

Accident on the highway? They don’t shut down the whole highway unless it’s in the way. Cars still drive by.

Maybe I’m taking your use of everything to literally?

[Mango20]

@Sunny74

I wonder if:

1. The Pony Club program is still producing such skilled horsemen and women as they appeared to 30-35 years ago

2. If modern eventers still come up through the Pony Club or just go to eventing barns where being an overall excellent horseperson (and rider) might not be emphasized anymore.

Again, I am probably way off base and I don’t know if there is any relevance or not. I just read about all the poor riding and I remember, in my day, the eventers were Pony Club kids who were excellent riders and excellent horsemen and women. Maybe times have changed? I can’t say.

1. Yes, if they stick with it. Pony Club, with its extra horse management rules and judging, and long rally days, tends to lose a portion of the kids when they become teenagers. They might shoot for YR or just event on their own, and never get higher than the C1 or C2 rating. Also, a lot more Pony Club kids board their horses instead of keep them at home like 30 years ago, so even though the standards and instruction are just as rigorous, there is a lack of hands-on experience with some members. That said, there are still quite a few who stick with it, achieve upper level ratings, and become great riders and horsemen. Our club has been lucky to retain our older members and they have gone on to get higher ratings. I see a lot of other clubs losing theirs, though.

[Ghazzu]

@Blugal

Here is a brief overview of the lawsuit filed by Mia Eriksson’s parents. Her trainer successfully defended it based on the liability waiver they signed. (I read the whole case. The horse did not have a confirmed concussion, that was a speculation.) https://www.lcwlegal.com/news/parents-cannot-sue-for-daughters-death-where-daughter-and-mother-signed-waiver-of-liability-agreement

.

Do I recall correctly that Mia Eriksson had been eliminated on XC before her fatal fall, but ignored the attempts of the jump judge to stop?

[Jealoushe]

@EventerAJ

Watching some videos, and spectating in real life, I do notice a weakness in many riders’ galloping ability. It was something you were more likely to learn in the long format days: how to put your hands down, cruise up out of the saddle, out of the horse’s way, and then pick him up approaching a fence.

I think it would do riders a lot of good to gallop some racehorses if they intend to ride at prelim or above. You learn to be comfortable at speed; you learn to balance at speed; and you learn ways to slow or influence a horse WITHOUT using your hands (leave them on the neck!). You must be fit with a strong leg. It exposes physical weakness and overriding. Think of it as “flat lessons” for XC. It gives you more tools that you won’t learn in an arena.

Yes and to me it looks like many riders ride with their stirrups way too long and are not off the horses backs. At the local Hts to me I would say 75% of the lower level kids sit the Cabernet the entire course with far too long stirrups. So again, why are coaches not instilling basics before allowing these riders onto the xc.

In Pony Club, we did clinics that were solely based on 2 point and learning MPM. I have never seen another since I was about 16 so that’s 20 years. This made me get the idea to see if my Provincial Association would like to host one at my farm this year because I have the perfect set up for a large area to gallop.

[Jealoushe]

Honestly we need those thrills and spills videos, they’re the only records we have of these falls for the most part.

Also I think the idea for a MER to go xc just shows what happens when you have RIDERS leading the safety brigade and not an actual safety board with scientists and data analysts.

Its a joke that BNR can be the ones deciding these changes.

[Blugal]

@Ghazzu

Do I recall correctly that Mia Eriksson had been eliminated on XC before her fatal fall, but ignored the attempts of the jump judge to stop?

She had had enough refusals to be eliminated. I believe back then it was a cumulative 4 refusals on course. The officials were trying to stop her. I don’t know exactly if she saw them, if she ignored them, or even if they were out there waving her down, or in the process of doing that. My recollection (which could be wrong, it’s been almost 14 years) is there was someone trying to wave her down at the water complex, she got to it and that’s the jump she fell at.

Mia was 17 years old. That evening after XC we, as competitors unconnected with her, found out she’d died at the Saturday night dinner/party. It wasn’t a party.

Our small group vowed to each other that night that we would retire on course, no matter what, if we ever had more than one problem (refusal or run-out). Two problems indicated it wasn’t our day, go home and figure it out. This was before retiring early was so much part of the culture as it is now. People didn’t discuss the what-ifs from a safety perspective, it was much more a kick-on and complete mentality. Unfortunately I think that contributed to Mia’s death. Her barnmates withdrew from the competition for Sunday’s show jumping.

My group didn’t even consider that as an option. We had driven 3 days to get to that FEI competition, of which there were only two per year on the West coast for us to attend.

[FlaxenChestnut]

@Denali6298

I’ve never seen everything stop for an investigation. I’ve seen squadrons get grounded because a plane crashed and other squadrons kept flying. I’ve seen an entire type of aircraft get grounded, except those aboard a ship. I’ve never seen everything come to a screeching halt. Cars continue to drive despite crashes, planes keep flying, horse shows keep going. I think it would be highly irregular to stop.

I think it’s different when you are talking about essential traffic flows or military exercises. Air shows don’t always go on after crashes, many get cancelled. We are talking about a show here.

[Denali6298]

@FlaxenChestnut

I think it’s different when you are talking about essential traffic flows or military exercises. Air shows don’t always go on after crashes, many get cancelled. We are talking about a show here.

Yes, but the air show cannot continue the practiced routine without all the planes. It is proper to stop the air show because a squadron just had a plane go down. The Blue Angles and Thunderbirds are their own squadrons. So yes, if the Blue Angels have a plane go down they would be grounded for the investigation because squadrons get grounded when their planes go down.

The horse show stops for sure, but they don’t cancel the whole event. The investigation process between for the two are entirely different. It all happens after the fact but with planes there is the element of human error that extends beyond the pilot. Ground and maintenance personnel are investigated too. You as a competitor and everyone else at a horse show are not going to be investigated for the riders death and told not to ride or leave until the investigation is complete.

All commercial flights don’t stop because one type of plane went down. Again, everything related never comes to a screeching halt and cancelled unless it’s directly related.