Another rider death

[JER]

Ok my curious friends!

Here is the fabulous video Me and My EXO.

I can make more videos on request. Cooking with the EXO. Yoga with the EXO. Etc. Just let me know what you want to see.

[Rallycairn]

@JER

Ok my curious friends!

Here is the fabulous video Me and My EXO.

I can make more videos on request. Cooking with the EXO. Yoga with the EXO. Etc. Just let me know what you want to see.

Well, then, yoga with the EXO, of course!

[Gestalt]

@Denali6298

Maybe I’m taking your use of everything to literally?

Now we’re using the same language!

[AMWookey]

@FlaxenChestnut

I think it’s different when you are talking about essential traffic flows or military exercises. Air shows don’t always go on after crashes, many get cancelled. We are talking about a show here.

And a training exercise does not need to go on for that day either. There is always another day or another opportunity so it is a valid comparison IMHO.

[anon38350891]

@FlaxenChestnut

I think it’s different when you are talking about essential traffic flows or military exercises. Air shows don’t always go on after crashes, many get cancelled. We are talking about a show here.

I guess everybody knows just how quickly the races continue when a race horse dies on track. The audience barely blinks. I was at Keeneland on a day when two horses broke down catastrophically in one afternoon, separate races. There’s an entire super-fast drill: a tall curtain is swept out onto course, the horse is somehow loaded and euthanized if necessary, the trailer speeds away with the horse or corpse, and meanwhile spectators go grab another bourbon or place new bets. Next race!

We do seem to make distinctions about the seriousness of equine deaths from our sports.

[FlaxenChestnut]

@AMWookey

And a training exercise does not need to go on for that day either. There is always another day or another opportunity so it is a valid comparison IMHO.

I don’t want to keep pushing my point of view, because I see where you are coming from. But to me, it’s an essential part of training that the military carry on as usual after a serious accident, because in combat, things obviously cannot stop because someone is hurt or killed. Members must be prepared to carry on their orders and duties. It is an essential part of the job.

But things run differently outside that environment, and some think it is respectful to cancel a show after a catastrophic accident, because it isn’t a critical event. Like I said earlier, a serious injury would be enough for me to accept the cancellation of an HT. I wouldn’t feel the need to continue as a participant. Others feel differently. I respect that.

[Darkwave]

@AnastasiaBeaverhousen

Unfortunately, what it will take is a successful million dollar lawsuit before meaningful change will take place.

Right now, there is little incentive for anything beyond lip service. Riders keep entering and sponsors keep providing money.

As soon as someone talks serious litigation with a media savvy lawyer the PTB will sit up and take notice. Especially if they are singled out by name.

So…take a hypothetical situation of an experienced adult rider, on a horse that she has ridden and successfully competed for years, who has a fatal crash at a jump that otherwise did not raise any safety concerns or complaints.

What is your theory of the case? Who is liable?

This case would be hard enough to argue if the rider was a minor, or riding a new horse whose capabilities had been misrepresented, or jumping an obstacle that had raised obvious safety concerns. Research “assumption of risk” to understand why.

Under this particular fact pattern, I just don’t see any basis for a lawsuit.

[FlaxenChestnut]

@anon38350891

I guess everybody knows just how quickly the races continue when a race horse dies on track. The audience barely blinks. I was at Keeneland on a day when two horses broke down catastrophically in one afternoon, separate races. There’s an entire super-fast drill: a tall curtain is swept out onto course, the horse is somehow loaded and euthanized if necessary, the trailer speeds away with the horse or corpse, and meanwhile spectators go grab another bourbon or place new bets. Next race!

We do seem to make distinctions about the seriousness of equine deaths from our sports.

Yes, horses are considered solely as commodities by some. That doesn’t sit well with me either.

[AMWookey]

@FlaxenChestnut

I don’t want to keep pushing my point of view, because I see where you are coming from. But to me, it’s an essential part of training that the military carry on as usual after a serious accident, because in combat, things obviously cannot stop because someone is hurt or killed. Members must be prepared to carry on their orders and duties. It is an essential part of the job.

But things run differently outside that environment, and some think it is respectful to cancel a show after a catastrophic accident, because it isn’t a critical event. Like I said earlier, a serious injury would be enough for me to accept the cancellation of an HT. I wouldn’t feel the need to continue as a participant. Others feel differently. I respect that.

We had it happen at the CIC here last year. A BNR had a horrific fall and no one knew what happened. She was medavac’d and we all waited for an update. It was very serious, but no rumours were spread because we just didnt know.

But as far as I know, it was never considered to cancel the event.

[Puffergrrl]

@FlaxenChestnut

I don’t want to keep pushing my point of view, because I see where you are coming from. But to me, it’s an essential part of training that the military carry on as usual after a serious accident, because in combat, things obviously cannot stop because someone is hurt or killed. Members must be prepared to carry on their orders and duties. It is an essential part of the job.

But things run differently outside that environment, and some think it is respectful to cancel a show after a catastrophic accident, because it isn’t a critical event. Like I said earlier, a serious injury would be enough for me to accept the cancellation of an HT. I wouldn’t feel the need to continue as a participant. Others feel differently. I respect that.

I think there are a lot of things under the surface that factor into a decision to keep going. At lower levels with little riding on it, it’s easier to stop, but still not an easy call.

If you shut down mid-class, the show is going to have to refund at least partial entries to anyone who was scheduled after they determine the official stop time for the record. And how do they determine who is close enough to the end to finish? Especially if you’re going to place the class based only on who got to go because a reschedule is impossible. Does anyone lucky enough to be in the draw before the accident get the shot at points/prize money/just moving on to stadium & others are just SOL?

Also, there’s a good chance the event will lose a large chunk of revenue that they were planning to recoup if they have to refund entries and stall fees, but still pay out any promised prizes. I’ve seen that you’re struggling to keep events in business (we all are) this could be the end of more events.

In jumpers if there are World Cup points and/or 6-figures in prize money up for grabs, we almost always finish the class. They might see bad weather coming & move the class up or postpone it or hold it in a ring with different footing or set fences on the low side, but it goes. Even if a horse or rider gets hurt or dies, it goes. The classes have to run because the entry fees pay to keep the lights on & go towards prizes and at that kind of money & people flying from all around the world, there’d be a mutiny if you canceled.

Just another thing to think about if you wonder why they aren’t shutting down.

[FlaxenChestnut]

@Puffergrrl

I think there are a lot of things under the surface that factor into a decision to keep going. At lower levels with little riding on it, it’s easier to stop, but still not an easy call.

If you shut down mid-class, the show is going to have to refund at least partial entries to anyone who was scheduled after they determine the official stop time for the record. And how do they determine who is close enough to the end to finish? Especially if you’re going to place the class based only on who got to go because a reschedule is impossible. Does anyone lucky enough to be in the draw before the accident get the shot at points/prize money/just moving on to stadium & others are just SOL?

Also, there’s a good chance the event will lose a large chunk of revenue that they were planning to recoup if they have to refund entries and stall fees, but still pay out any promised prizes. I’ve seen that you’re struggling to keep events in business (we all are) this could be the end of more events.

In jumpers if there are World Cup points and/or 6-figures in prize money up for grabs, we almost always finish the class. They might see bad weather coming & move the class up or postpone it or hold it in a ring with different footing or set fences on the low side, but it goes. Even if a horse or rider gets hurt or dies, it goes. The classes have to run because the entry fees pay to keep the lights on & go towards prizes and at that kind of money & people flying from all around the world, there’d be a mutiny if you canceled.

Just another thing to think about if you wonder why they aren’t shutting down.

I don’t doubt loss of money, time and effort all play into the decision to continue.

[Alterforme]

https://jumpernation.com/tryon-addresses-multiple-falls-and-footing-concerns-during-week-iv/

the article I posted, Is one incident that an FEI class was cancelled mid class. It was a jumper class in tryon. 3 horses fell in the class, slipping in the footing. They cancelled the class to avoid any injuries & gave out the prize money to the winner of those that had completed the class.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

People are not sheep…regardless of whether an event continues or not…any competitor can withdraw and choose not to continue. I know riders who have. I have just when I had a personal tragedy…and knew I wasn’t going to be focused enough to ride. Just as I’ve WD if the footing wasn’t good. Some still ran but I was judging what was good and safe for my horse at their stage of training. To me this is a non issue. It has nothing to add to safety. But I agree there needs to be transparency at all times.

I will really complain if they try and make MERs on the day. That is just dumb. It’s not the scores that indicate safety. We have been there before and looked at that issue. That sort of Change is “fake” safety. It really doesn’t help. Having more stewards to watch for DR…that is a very reasonable thing to do.

[Puffergrrl]

@Alterforme

https://jumpernation.com/tryon-addre…uring-week-iv/

the article I posted, Is one incident that an FEI class was cancelled mid class. It was a jumper class in tryon. 3 horses fell in the class, slipping in the footing. They cancelled the class to avoid any injuries & gave out the prize money to the winner of those that had completed the class.

Actually, about 1/2 the class had gone, so they placed it as of stopping & then let anyone who hadn’t gone come back and ride the next day (if they wanted to) and placed them separately, including another set of prize money. It was also only a $30-35,000 1.40-1.45m speed class, so they didn’t have to work around a table A jump off.

They did have their crew out all night correcting the footing between the days so they wouldn’t have problems in the $130,000 class. That’s definitely not new. Those guys bust their butts most places & if they don’t, people don’t go back. Is becoming the downfall of HITS.

[AnastasiaBeaverhousen]

@Darkwave

So…take a hypothetical situation of an experienced adult rider, on a horse that she has ridden and successfully competed for years, who has a fatal crash at a jump that otherwise did not raise any safety concerns or complaints.

What is your theory of the case? Who is liable?

This case would be hard enough to argue if the rider was a minor, or riding a new horse whose capabilities had been misrepresented, or jumping an obstacle that had raised obvious safety concerns. Research “assumption of risk” to understand why.

Under this particular fact pattern, I just don’t see any basis for a lawsuit.

I can’t speak on this particular case. Her family will decide or not whether they want to take legal action.

My point is that the NGB needs to have its feet held to the fire before any real meaningful change takes place.

It took an Act of Congress to get Safe Sport. The NGB chose to look the other way until they were made to take action.

I wasnt trying to pinpoint a particular person at a particular level.

(Presumably the families of upper level riders such as WFP and MJ are already aware of the risks. )

I was thinking more of any case that was won and damages was awarded.

It doesn’t mean high profile, although that certainly wouldn’t hurt. It just means sometimes hitting them in the pocketbook is the only way to motivate them into doing the right thing.

[Blugal]

Hitting “them” in the pocketbook is hitting US in the pocketbook through our membership and entry fees. I’d prefer to spend that money now on safety improvements.

[clivers]

Some of the posters arguing that it is not feasible to cancel a competition when there has been a fatality may want to read this piece concerning the death of Jordan MacDonald in 2014. The event was cancelled and there wasn’t a riot.

Rider deaths are rare (but not rare enough) and a true tragedy. Is the Eventing world really so callous that we would be angry and demand a refund if our trip was cancelled due to the death of one of our peers? I certainly would never come after organizers for a refund. I would hug my horse and my friends and drive away crying for the life cut short.

https://eventingnation.com/canadian-rider-fatality-reported-at-nunney-horse-trials/

[AnastasiaBeaverhousen]

@Blugal

Hitting “them” in the pocketbook is hitting US in the pocketbook through our membership and entry fees. I’d prefer to spend that money now on safety improvements.

Well, a lot of the posters believe that your money is being spent on crab pots for jumps, not safety.

[Gestalt]

@Darkwave

So…take a hypothetical situation of an experienced adult rider, on a horse that she has ridden and successfully competed for years, who has a fatal crash at a jump that otherwise did not raise any safety concerns or complaints.

What is your theory of the case? Who is liable?

This case would be hard enough to argue if the rider was a minor, or riding a new horse whose capabilities had been misrepresented, or jumping an obstacle that had raised obvious safety concerns. Research “assumption of risk” to understand why.

Under this particular fact pattern, I just don’t see any basis for a lawsuit.

Who determined that the jump wasn’t the cause of the crash? Who investigated the venue, the officials, the riders team, the tack/equipment? Without an impartial investigation who is to say what really happened? You? The volunteer jump judge? Through my work I know how easily lawsuits can happen. Even if everyone present at the time of death did everything right or “by the book” there can still be a lawsuit that may not win but it will be costly to fight. Hence all the payouts for a case to be dropped.

This is only my personal view, but it seems like several posters here think certain aspects of life are immune to being sued. Example: a pedestrian wearing headphones jaywalks on a busy street at night wearing dark clothes and is hit by a driver in a small truck. Do you think that pedestrian’s family will win their lawsuit? Answer: yes they did. The trucking company, the driver, the electric company (street lights), and the city were all found to have some culpability.

[erinmeri]

@Jealoushe

Honestly we need those thrills and spills videos, they’re the only records we have of these falls for the most part.

Sorry, didn’t mean to imply that they shouldn’t exist - more so that the way in which that particular one was presented really undermined the seriousness of what was being depicted IMO. If it were more serious in tone, I would be equally disturbed by the quantity of falls that day, but I wouldn’t have concerns that some people don’t take them as seriously as they should.

I think that the grassroots conversations and debate and concern shown by you and others in the eventing community on these boards, and your efforts to document and understand incidents is inspiring. And if the videos help in those efforts, then great. Just would choose a completely different tone than this video presented if it were me. It is the subtext that is disturbing to me in that video.