" two events running on top of one another is not only not sustainable for either event, it also negatively impacts the competitors. "
Tryon is 300 miles from VHC, a stone’s throw from Area 3. Do you really think that these venues would compete with one another in any meaningful way? I also do not understand how this could negatively affect competitors?
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Absolutely both events would be impacted in numbers by running on the same weekend. Other weekends have been proposed to Ryan Shenandoah a Horse Trials and our issue is not preventing them from running but instead asking them to have their own dates. How would it impact competitors negatively you ask? If riders must choose between going to one event or the other that is negative as opposed to potentially having the option to do both.
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https://www.usef.org/forms-pubs/s9SeSv4S0Sc/gr–general-rules
GR314 Mileage chart for Eventing. Based of the levels that VHT ran last year, there only appears to be a conflict if Shenandoah applies for a CCI2L (@ 300 mile limit, TIEC is 290 miles from VHC) Please correct me if I am wrong. Has anyone seen or reliably heard what levels Shenandoah is applying for?
Coming from Lexington KY, it is almost the same distance to Virginia and Tryon. The dates over Memorial Day weekend probably not that big of deal, as there is an event at the Kentucky Horse Park at the same time. But Prelim and up is not offered, so riders from that area may be choosing between the two shows. But the November dates would absolutely have to be a choice, as the season ends in area 8 in October. Also, University of Kentucky brings around 30 riders alone for the intercollegiate championships, so depending who gets awarded the champs, will be a big deal.
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They applied for all levels that VHT runs- CCI3S and below.
Okay, I’ll say my peace. April, May Sept, Nov are currently Tryon dates. It has already nearly killed Windridge and FENCE recognized horse trials, although I will say War Horse here at CHP has done a nice job of helping. Do we really need to put more horse trials at Tryon? Can’t we find another venue or support a smaller one to becoming a bigger one? I can’t help being disappointed if we make another large venue richer at the expense of other venues with some real opportunity. I don’t support what happened at VHT at all, but I’m just so worried about losing more events that are on good land River Glen up for sale too!
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Gardenie- I don’t disagree with your concerns in the slightest but I think we have to be careful to separate the issues. Firstly, from what I understand, Tryon is going to restructure their dates to essentially run the same number of horse trials as they do currently, just doing it in a way that makes more sense in the calendar. I love the idea of supporting small venues, one of my favorite horse trials I have been to in Area II is Seneca Valley PC, talk about adorable. However, right now some bigger venues are stepping up to the plate to invest major money into running horse trials and keeping the health of our sport. Let’s not forget this is one large venue applying for the dates of another large venue. So this is a separate issue. Also, with the number of horses and the levels that VHT run, it requires a special venue to accommodate it. You’d be hard pressed for many venues to accommodate 600 stalls like we require. As far as River Glen, that has nothing to do with the VHT issue, there are no competing events whatsoever with them so you can’t say its a large venue taking over a small, in fact- if River Glen sadly sells, riders of all levels will be looking for replacement events to go to. That is in effect what all good organizers want to provide.
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I think that’s kind of the point though. Ten years ago Seneca wasn’t a “small venue”-- it ran two full days and if you didn’t enter quickly you didn’t get in. You routinely saw all of the top riders from a 500 mile area competing. There were two or three Intermediate sections and four or five Prelim ones and six or so Trainings, all with 20+ horses. The bigger venues like Tryon and Loch Moy have essentially killed it, along with a lot of other “smaller” events. So no, I don’t think the bigger venues make the sport healthier.
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Gonna get attacked for this, but going out on a limb here and say most people won’t flock to VHT at Tryon just to support a VHT run event, thats not how loyalties lie. Maybe in the old days with Brian and Penny, but not now. Most people aren’t loyal to the organizers, they are loyal to the venue. Even if Shenandoah and VHT get different dates I would pick Shenandoah 9/10 times because of the venue and terrain. We don’t need more golf course horse trials at Tryon jumping the same set of tables. IMHO that is the last thing we need.
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No one is going to attack you (at least they shouldn’t). Everyone is absolutely entitled to their opinion. I’m very sad to hear that you feel that competitors don’t place as much value on the organizers of the event as the piece of ground it’s run on. But everyone has their priorities and that’s quite alright.
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I remember Seneca Valley being one you wanted to go to as well.
I’m glad to hear that Tryon is not going to run more horse trials, and I hope they can get dates that don’t run over the smaller venues.
I’d still love to see someone who wanted to take over River Glen Horse Trials get it. I need to win the Powerball LOL.
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No dog in this fight, and I am a believer in supporting organizers.
However, I strongly feel the sport was better with diversity among venues. The “mega-facility” trend is sad and leading to a cookie cutter homogenized feel… going in a “circuit” among the same 5 venues may technically be eventing, but the single, annual horse trial sites were special and had something new to offer, a uniqueness in terrain & obstacles that taught horses & riders more than jumping the same portables moved across the field five times a year. It’s not politically correct to say, but I would GLADLY sacrifice the “perfect” footing, synthetic dressage rings, decorative house/duck/turtle tables, permanent stalls & bathrooms three times a year…for a hilly mowed field, porta-potties, piles of logs, coops, and wooded trails of iconic “mom and pop” events.
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I agree 100%. The move toward a “premier circuit” of events at mega-venues owned by real estate developers may help with “sustainability” in the sense that eventing can ride on the coattails of the extreme wealth in the hunter/jumper world by sharing these facilities, but I’m not at all convinced that it’s good for the sport. If things continue in this vein with the mega venues getting the majority of upper level competitions, most of the smaller events will be forced out of existence or relegated to lower level, likely unrecognized competitions only. And just like in the h/j world, you’ll have a massive divide between the worlds of those that can afford to play on the “circuit” on a regular basis, and everybody else.
If we keep prizing “amenities” above unique and varied courses and giving more and more dates to the biggest, fanciest venues and allowing them to pull competitors from long-running events with great courses but where you might have to, say, stable on dirt floors and warm up on grass or jump on plain old sand instead of GGT, it’ll become more and more about who can pay to play.
(This is a tangent to the original thread. I’m well aware that the VA Horse Center isn’t some little mom-and-pop farm holding a horse trials in their neighbor’s’ backyards, even if it isn’t as new and shiny as Tryon. And don’t get me wrong, Tryon is very nice and I’m not opposed to having a couple big events there. I just don’t think having an event there once a month using the same portables over the same manicured ground is the way I’d like to see eventing go)
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Can someone in lamens terms explain what is happening?
This is my understanding:
“A” Group owns the Virginia Horse Center, “B” Persons has for the past used VHC/rented as Organizer for VHC, in doing so they’ve invested their own money into the jumps that go on VHC. I assume while you can move some tables, this is much more difficult to pick up and move. “A” Group has decided they are increasing the fee to use VHC to the point that “B” Persons cannot afford to organize/run the events. So “B” Persons has requested their date be kept to USEA/USEF (whoever grants this) and use TIEC until they can move/prepare the WV property?
Meanwhile a Group “C” would like to come in as an organizer (“Shenandoah”?) and utilize VHC because they believe they can run the event at that cost or gotten a better deal. We don’t know.
So the petition is requesting us to Back “B” Persons date request to support them since they’ve been great organizers/invested so much time to the sport?
I am confused at what the buyout is for. The jumps? The jumps and the date? Because it seems as though rather than buy the jumps and date, “A” Group is sitting still and “C” Group is bidding for the date instead.
I think there is some disconnect in what we as riders know about the organizers/land owners, etc. For example, as an area III rider, I assumed that most private farms hired/accepted organizers to run their own horse shows? Or is this not correct? That makes sense. It is difficult though as a rider, you want to support the organizers who invest in our sport, but you do grow fond of these courses and don’t want to lose them. I didn’t know an organizer had the date and could leave and go somewhere else. Now I do know for the H/J circuits that come in it is , like a separate organization/organizer that comes in. brings their own jumps. etc.
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This is relatively correct, except that the “WV property” is a red herring, and not involved in this scenario at all.
Not yet.
VHC (which you call “A Group”) would LIKE to find a “Group C” who would rent the facility and run a Horse Trial, but they have not yet found anybody. At one point (before they knew about the facility in WV) VHC was proposing to call the HT run by the hypothetical “Group C” “Shenandoah HT” but that name has been dropped.
I have no idea what “buyout” you re talking about. The (portable) jumps have already been sold (though they will remain in place until after the November HT) to various different people… “C Group” does not exist. VHC (“A Group”) is bidding to run a HT on the original dates.
That is almost NEVER the case.
If the organizer is not the landowner then, in almost all cases, the organizer rents the facility from the landowner.
If the landowner is the organizer, they might hire staff to rn the event, but that staff would not be the “organizer”.
Under USEF, it is, by definition, the organizer (technically the “license owner”) that “has the date”. They can move the competition to a different facility, as long as they meet the “mileage rules”.
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Thank you so much for breaking that down. So this is even more devastating for our sport as my Group C, an organizer to take over a horse trial at VHC has not been secured.
I might have more questions, maybe these would be interesting for those of us who are invested in the sport.
If Group B, the previous organizer, secures his dates at TIEC, does this close the opportunity for anyone to come in VHC and bid for their own date? Are the other calendar dates available if they found someone to organize a HT. (In my little understanding I’m thinking great we give Group B/Andy his dates and then when VHC finds a new organizer they get their own weekend. But, maybe there’s no other weekend available?)
If Group B, the previous organizers of VHC, do get these “dates” will they stay at TIEC or will they eventually take the horse trial to WV? I think myself, someone very outside of the situation but a competitor at these events, would like to support the organizers, anyone who has invested into the sport, but would prefer not another weekend gone to TIEC over another course for the sake of diversification of courses available long-term.
Lastly, my “buyout” came from this segment of the petition:
"Andy offered to sell the business to the horse center at a price that was derived from market research. The Horse Center offered Andy less than half of that number. An offer that was less than what Andy had paid for it. The offer didn’t give value to the $100,000 in new jumps that Andy had built or the growth in the horse trials that Andy had cultured- taking numbers from approximately 350 to 511 at the finale event this November. "
So, my last inquiry is what was included in this sale? The “Show Organization LLC” owned by Andy, the jumps?, the dates?
*My inquiries are really just a want of understanding how the process works, etc.
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Janet is correct on all fronts except the VHC is trying to run the horse trials themselves so basically A group and C group are one and the same.
Also your questions are excellent and I am happy to answer them to the best of my knowledge. We offered to sell Virginia Horse Trials LLC to VHC. That includes the dates, the logo, the jumps, everything.
Yes, VHC, or another organizer running at VHC, could bid for a different date, and it would probably be approved. In fact, if my understanding is correct, they could run a lower level (below Prelim IIRC) on the current dates. But they want to run the upper levels…
VHC CLAIMS that no other weekends are available for a HT. But MY OPINION is that, if they really wanted to, they could “kick out” one of their other competitions to make a different date available for the HT.
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Thanks, I’m just coming in loaded with questions. I agree and that’s my opinion too. But, then you wonder, well I really don’t want another small event to get kicked out, as much as VHC is such a great course.
I typed earlier, but erased. Not that we want VHC and Group B/previous organizer to have even more competition after their split, but I feel as though the organizers going to TIEC will add in a new group of riders from Area III (It’s on our calendar to go to these, and usually only go to VHC for an FEI or Long if needed/want to because of distance) So, if they ran the same weekend while I’d assume not the extravagant size of the original horse trials, TIEC location may come close with the additional southern riders coming up. I don’t see this happening, but food for thought.
