Another VitE question... Big horse dosage

[MapleFarm]

Hello!

To preface: I have not had a vitE test for this horse, but am not opposed to it - I thought I’d do a trial run first since it is pretty safe and not overly expensive. It’s also not super fast to get an appointment any more around here for non-emergencies.

Horse is an 18.2 Percheron/Tb mare, probably 1800-2000lbs. Every fall around now (starts mid October?) she stops enjoying brushing. Like, don’t touch me even when the Haas Diva brush. This is a horse that gets visibly excited when I put the scratchy gloves on in summer . I’ve had her 4 years - in year 1 I had the vet out and they did a Lyme test (2 tests, no concerning numbers) but didn’t suggest anything else. It goes away in spring like clockwork.

She has some dry skin in winter, but a shiny coat and decent hooves otherwise. Generally an easy keeper. She eats a ration balancer (McCauley’s Trinergy - 2.5 lbs), EO-3 oil, and Zn/Cu added (we live in high iron area). The only other change in winter is she goes off her Zyrtec, but I don’t think I used it the first year or two so that shouldn’t be the issue - she has a lot of eye allergies in summer.

After seeing on this board all the vitE stuff, I thought this might be it as it coincides with the grass dying off and her going to hay. Last year I supplemented UltraCruz E (dry) - I think one scoop twice a day? Which should be 8000iu, but did not see a difference.

I just ordered the liquid E (smartpak). My question: how much IU should I give her for her size of the liquid, and once per day or split it into twice per day?

Thank you! Apologies for creating another thread on this.

A photo of her from the other day, mostly for fun, but also to show size and coat:

[JB]

@MapleFarm

I thought this might be it as it coincides with the grass dying off and her going to hay

Vit Eis a fat-soluble vitamin - stored in fat. Barring a horse eating barely enough to use for body functions, a Summer of grass most places would make for a good Vit E store in the fat, so it takes longer than just coming off grass to run low. Some places in the US (and I assume other countries) don’t have enough E in their soil.

@MapleFarm

Last year I supplemented UltraCruz E (dry) - I think one scoop twice a day? Which should be 8000iu, but did not see a difference.

Then it’s not likely a Vit E issue

@MapleFarm

The only other change in winter is she goes off her Zyrtec, but I don’t think I used it the first year or two so that shouldn’t be the issue - she has a lot of eye allergies in summer.

It’s more likely an allergy issue. Seasonal allergies can vary a bit based on how the weather has been behaving

@MapleFarm

I just ordered the liquid E (smartpak). My question: how much IU should I give her for her size of the liquid, and once per day or split it into twice per day?

The NRC says 0.5mg/lb body weight, but that’s really, really basic. All the PhD/MSc nutritionists I know recommend more like 1-2IU per pound body weight as a base, and even 3-4 if they’re working hard enough

But that liquid is water-soluble, so more bioavailable, so 1-1.5IU/lb should be plenty

That said, start with a blood test, and check selenium while you’re at it. This doesn’t sound like a Vit E issue, especially since 8000IU of a natural E wasn’t making a difference.

FWIW, if you like the convenience of the water-soluble liquid (not all liquids are w-s, but all w-s are liquids), then while the cost of the SmartPack product is the same as Emcelle (per 1000IU), Emcelle comes with a pump and the SP product comes with a syringe (or they suggest you use a syringe, I don’t remember for sure)

[MapleFarm]

Thank you so much for the detailed response! Maybe I’ll put her back on Zyrtec and see if it makes a difference - unless it is the opposite and she actually doesn’t care to be brushed, and only enjoys it due to being extra itchy all summer

I’ll go ahead and give the E since it probably would be a good thing to add due to the grass dying off, but good to know it would take longer to see any issue. I’ll see if my vet can come out at some point soon to run a blood test, it wouldn’t be bad to check the Selenium as well as you said.

Thanks again!!

[JB]

What dose of Zyrtec are you using? The studied dose is 0.2-0.4mg/kg body weight every 12-24 hours, so for 1800lb, that’s 163-327mg 1-2 times a day. So 16 to 32 10mg pills 1-2 times a day

[MapleFarm]

I have been giving 18 2x/day (34 total)in the summer, but have occasionally gone up to 40 total if I see symptoms like runny eyes or coughing in the field. I stopped a few weeks ago, but was going to start back after this conversation!

Side note: I see less vaccine reactivity in her with Zyrtec. For spring shots, I normally haven’t started Zyrtec yet, but this year she got them later and did not have as much reaction.

[blue_heron]

The smartpak comes with a syringe. A great one that works with their packaging I might add and dosing it is super easy.

[Simkie]

One thing to consider with seasonal crankiness is temps and their comfort. I’m playing with this now in mine, after noticing that colder overnight = snappier about grooming in the AM. I’m experimenting with blanket weights to see if that helps.

I also wouldn’t expect crabbiness from lack of vitamin e so soon after grazing season, unless she was just reeeaaaaally borderline all summer. They work off their body stores over the winter, so should really be okay right now if they were okay over the summer.

[JB]

@blue_heron

The smartpak comes with a syringe. A great one that works with their packaging I might add and dosing it is super easy.

Good to know they give you one. I’m curious how you effectively get the liquid out when the level drops below the length of the syringe?

Either way - it’s the same principle as Emcelle (micellized vitamin E) for the same cost on auto-ship, and only a few pennies more if buying here and there.

[blue_heron]

The syringe does not have a long needle. The bottle has a cap with a donut stopper on it. You stick the little end of the syringe in the donut and flip the whole thing upside down. So there would have to be very little left in the bottle for it not to work.

I don’t think it would be the best set up if the bottle was significantly larger.

[JB]

Oooo, it took me a hot minute to visualize that but I think I get it What a great ideal. So essentially the amount left has to get lower than the length of the syringe tip, at which point there are many ways to get that last little bit into the syringe. Thanks!

[MapleFarm]

yes, the bottle with the syringe was surprisingly easy! I ordered it with the 20% off thing last week so it was a good deal.

[MapleFarm]

Interesting! She’s pretty hardy… I think I blanket a few times a year? I’ve never seen her shiver. But, she is half thoroughbred as we joke, and can be a sensitive flower when it comes to her skin, etc. I’ll watch to see if she is less sensitive after blanketing.

She is also staticky- she has the “mink coat” vs the longer hair of my Friesian cross and tends to get shocked easily.

[luvmyhackney]

I’d pull a basic blood test and check red blood cell count plus PPID. It can cause all kind of weird stuff including not regulating body temperature which in turn causes sore muscles.

I didn’t see where you said age but just in case thought I’d mention it.

Try adding a layer to help stay warm to see if that helps.

[MapleFarm]

Oh, she is 7, so I don’t think so! But not a bad thing to get numbers anyway, you never know. I thought even testing for PSSM but she has none of the other symptoms.

[GraceLikeRain]

Following with interest as I’ve got a carbon copy with a negative metabolic panel but similar testy winter feelings about grooming

[Simkie]

@MapleFarm

Interesting! She’s pretty hardy… I think I blanket a few times a year? I’ve never seen her shiver. But, she is half thoroughbred as we joke, and can be a sensitive flower when it comes to her skin, etc. I’ll watch to see if she is less sensitive after blanketing.

Yeah, I’m also waaaaay ahead of when I’d usually be blanketing and have no other indication of it yet. But am tired of the snappy mornings! With the temps all over it’s been tough to pin down exactly what they need overnight but I’ve definitely had a few days where it seemed I got it right. It’s a tough needle to thread when we’re bouncing between 70s and 30s

I’m also super crabby when I’m cold so I can’t really blame them, haha.

[FjordBCRF]

@GraceLikeRain

Following with interest as I’ve got a carbon copy with a negative metabolic panel but similar testy winter feelings about grooming

Could it be something like static with the winter coats coming in? My guy isn’t sensitive to it, but I notice it if I use certain brushes!