Any advice

[RhythmNCruise]

Bless your heart, OP, I feel your frustration. Here are my suggestions and anecdotal reasoning:

Put shoes back on him. I swear, last week I did something to the ball of my right foot and it hurt so bad I was almost in tears every day by the end of work. When that pain resolved, my right calf muscle was in pain from walking weird while my foot hurt. Then my lower back was tight and sore due to the calf muscle hurting. I remember thinking, I will do whatever it takes if my horse starts being footsore to spare him this agony. I was tired, grumpy, and just not a happy human last week due to the pain.

Cut out the alfalfa. I’ve known a horse that 100% could NOT eat alfalfa, and I’m sure he’s not the only one. This was a docile, angelic QH gelding that was used for beginner lessons for little kids. He was a saint. But feed him a pad of alfalfa and he became a jittery, glassy-eyed menace that overreacted to everything. I was told this about the horse, didn’t really believe he could ever be anything but sweet and gentle, and then saw it for myself when someone tried giving him some alfalfa. Totally changed his demeanor. Stopped feeding him alfalfa and he was immediately back to being his reliably sweet self. My own horse can handle small amounts of alfalfa (he gets it in alfalfa-timothy pellets, which is his “feed”). But too much can make him a bit jittery too.

Put him back on Gastrogard. I never realized how ulcers could affect horses until I experienced first hand with my gelding the miracle of omeprazole. I never suspected ulcers with him because he lives the best type of life: 24/7 turnout, forage-based diet, fat and shiny. But when we moved to our current barn back in January, he became a lunatic. I posted here about it and someone mentioned ulcers. I started Ulcergard (full tube) and the change was immediate and drastic. He’s back to being a happy slug…his natural state, lol. I’m tapering down now and he’s still cool as a cucumber.

[Pippigirl]

@Ridethroughit23

12 hour daily turnout with friend -->24/7 turnout individual (in stall in bad weather). Next to other horses over the fence. I want herd turnout but no option for that here. Large field with shelter

How does he seem on solo turnout? My tb mare was never happy/settled if turned out alone. Horses directly next door or within sight made no difference. To her she was all alone. She was terrified and probably felt vulnerable being alone outside. She never adjusted to that. She always needed another horse with her. If she was in a stall by herself she was fine with that.

[Ridethroughit23]

Thank you I think these are good first steps. I just looked back in my records and was surprised to find we did start him on alfalfa right when he arrived, I had thought it was a couple of weeks later. I’ve just always heard problems with alfalfa was a myth. Unfortunately it seems to be a big factor in his weight gain so I’ll have to figure something else out.

[Ridethroughit23]

Thank you. I think I’ll give this a try

[Ridethroughit23]

Have you not seen all the research about hoof health and traditional shoes?

[Paint_Party]

@Ridethroughit23

I want to just give up and let him be another retiree. I’m over this. The hobby is only a stressor now. I don’t want to do this anymore.

I can feel your frustration, and am sorry you’re going through this. I think your stress and anxiety is made worse by some PTSD related to your experience with your last horse.

This is a young, green OTTB. Some inconsistencies in his aptitude, training and behavior are to be expected. He’s 4. Not 14. So don’t be so hard on yourself… or him.

But first, put the shoes back on! Even your vet suggested it. Your PPE revealed he had “mildly thin soles”. Part of his pissy behavior could be due to ouchy feet.

I’d also try swapping out the alfalfa and scoping to really get a handle on any recalcitrant ulcer issues.

When it comes to riding him, do you only ride in lessons? If not, I’d suggest that you stick with lessons and training sessions until you feel more relaxed and confident. There may even be things you are doing in your riding, from position in the saddle to a clashing of aids, that are annoying or frustrating your sensitive horse. We’ve all gone through phases like that, especially on a young horse that’s new to us. Your trainer should be able to help you address those problems if they’re contributing to your situation.

Good luck and stay strong! This will get better.

[knic]

It’s crazy to chase all these other suggestions without first giving the poor horse some hoof protection. If you are anti-shoes OTTB probably aren’t the right breed for you, not that some can’t be barefoot, but the ppe showed thin soles and you pulled his shoes…

[IPEsq]

TC Senior has alfalfa in it. Sure, some horses are very intolerant of alfalfa, but the ones I’ve known with true alfalfa issues can’t have ANY alfalfa. If horse was on ex-racehorse ration of Senior, that probably would have been enough itself to cause an issue if alfalfa is a big problem. You can also add oils for more calories.

I agree with going back to shoes for now and Gastrogard. I believe you can do Gastrogard with the miso and sucralfate, but you may have to be careful with timing of your doses. I’ve also had some success adding extra probiotics and Succeed in conjunction with ulcer treatment (and continuing afterwards for a while).

Give those things a little bit of time before going to a full blown workup. He could be sore in a lot of places and off just due to feet and tummy, making things less clear overall. But it wouldn’t hurt to do some blood tests in the meantime if you are worried about things like Lyme.

[S1969]

@Ridethroughit23

Have you not seen all the research about hoof health and traditional shoes?

Sure you can find things that support barefoot being better. But it’s kind of BS if your horse is lame as a result.

Some horses have great feet, and others simply do not. Most horses are not bred with “great rock-crushing hard feet” as a primary goal in selection. TBs, for example, are not typically bred for “great feet” versus “fast”.

I have two barefoot, one shod. When I bought my APHA mare she was shod; my farrier evaluated her feet and decided she didn’t need them, took her shoes off and we never saw a reason to put them back on.

You don’t have that situation. You have a horse that seemed good when you bought it, and now is not the same. Plus you have two obvious suggestions that the horse needs shoes to be comfortable - the sole depth and the vet’s recommendation.

I’d at least put front shoes and pads on and see if you notice a change. It’s a pretty easy test.

And probably treat for ulcers, because stress of moving, and potentially being foot sore is easily a way to cause an ulcer situation.

[Pepsy]

Hi,
I am not going to weigh in on barefoot or shoes. I am going to suggest FIRST stop the alfalfa. If alfalfa is a problem for this horse, you will notice a difference pretty quickly. One thing at a time. Good Luck!

[rulex]

Alfalfa can also cause inflammation in the feet. So it can be hard to figure out if the alfalfa might be causing the foot soreness vs pulling the shoes. If you are wanting to be systematic about it, I would start with cutting out the alfalfa and try hoof boots for immediate support for the feet without going directly back to shoes. Especially since you mention flaring, that could be diet related or trim related. Get him on a forage based diet and appropriate mineral supplement. There are lots of other options for weight gain like beet pulp, oil etc.

The one thing is if your horse also suffers from ulcers the calcium in alfalfa helps with that. So maybe look into other support for the ulcers when you stop alfalfa.

You say he’s now on 24/7 turnout, how big of a space? Does he have enough room for a good rip around?

It feels like you’ve been quite exhaustive in trying to figure out his issues. Given that he was happy and healthy in a program when you got him, my guess would be there’s something about his current management that’s not working for him. I would be inclined to tinker with that first rather than go down the diagnostic rabbit hole.

I would also suspect you might be carrying some of your own baggage. My guess is he needs to get his management figured out so his body can be comfortable and then needs to get put to regular work. Whether you are the right person for that or you need to turn him over to someone sympathetic but who will get down to business is something to consider.

I say all this as someone who once owned a 4yo TB who was a completely different horse depending on turnout situation. Basically needed 24/7 turnout in a big field with room to run or would be crawling up the walls. And said horse also did great barefoot so I don’t buy in to the TB bad feet stereotype.

And I’m also currently in the “aa on a small budget trying to have a sound horse for local stuff” club. Different horse than the above mentioned TB. Also have the ulcers T-shirt from a previous horse.

[Bluey]

@Pepsy

Hi,
I am not going to weigh in on barefoot or shoes. I am going to suggest FIRST stop the alfalfa. If alfalfa is a problem for this horse, you will notice a difference pretty quickly. One thing at a time. Good Luck!

… and I am going to weigh in on alfalfa being the cause of all some assume is causing their horse to do poorly.
Alfalfa is all we have fed for a good 100 years and, other than one TB being truly allergy to it, had quarter size hives all over, scary, we have never had a horse that alfalfa made “crazy”.
We had plenty of horses come to us for training-retraining with the warning about alfalfa, but not one of those warnings held up, horses were fine on alfalfa after all.
Not dismissing the stories of others that had some horse clearly doing poorly on alfalfa, just that it may be rare, not as common as needing a regular warning against it.

I would say, keep checking horse for some as of yet not found that makes him so irritable, start with putting shoes for right now first and see how that goes.
Address his stomach and lastly, then you can take alfalfa away only and see if that does make a difference.
In our experience, horses that came to us on little or no alfalfa, once on it here, bloomed all the way around and trained and competed for us very nicely.
Even our vets over the years said, whatever you do, don’t change, keep doing it, your stable is one with the nicest, healthiest, soundest horses we take care of, a handful of colics and injuries over decades and over many horses.
We think that alfalfa was maybe part of that also, is a light stomach buffer, why that may be so, along with an abundant protein profile, one nutritionist called alfalfa in rations doing better than expected “the alfalfa factor”.

The main drawbacks of alfalfa we found is, alfalfa tends to be more expensive than other hay.
As hay will mold quicker than others, has to be fed where you can see what you are feeding to be sure is mold free, pressed, cubed, pelleted or meal, you really don’t always know what you are getting.
It is not the proper mineral balance for young stock until they are past two.
It has too much calcium, not balanced with phosphorus and can cause joint problems on a growing body if that is not addressed by feeding other with less calcium, like plain oats, or using a phosphorus supplement.
For mature horses, that is not a problem any more, excess calcium and protein is excreted.

In fact, some re-feeding protocols for starving horses are based on several alfalfa meals a day initially, as is the easiest to digest for the important nutrient profile in every bite.

I think so much that is said against alfalfa is not backed by solid studies, the data is not there.

[Paint_Party]

@S1969

Plus you have two obvious suggestions that the horse needs shoes to be comfortable - the sole depth and the vet’s recommendation.

This is what I don’t understand. It’s almost defiance against notable remarks from two vets.

There was a recent poster who was disheartened about her new horse, whose shoes had been pulled because ???, and once the shoes were put back on there was a dramatic improvement.

Not saying a lack of shoes is this horse’s only issue. But it seems like a fairly inexpensive, non-invasive place to start.

[atr]

I’ve always fed alfalfa, too. I live in the Wild West. It is what is available, and it is less expensive than grass hay. My horses have all done wonderfully on it.

But then I got this one horse…

[fivestrideline]

OP, you have flaring. Which means your trim is off, or the horse is so sore he’s carrying himself in a way to wear his feet down unevenly.

I agree that traditional open heeled shoes can lead directly to caudal failure and are generally not the best choice. But your horse is most likely in pain and needs hoof support! Barefoot is great, unless it gives you lame and unrideable horse.

Put shoes and a frog support 3D pad on (you may have to experiment with hard pour in vs equipak vs magic cushion underneath. I’d do something soft to start) and see what you have. This setup gives you a lot of the benefits of barefoot + cushion and frog support, doesn’t have to be fiddled with daily (like boots), and most competent farriers have easy access to the parts needed (unlike composites). It won’t be cheap but it is cheaper than vet bills, glue ons, and a variety of other options.

4 week cycle on the shoes, see what you have. Next step would be to try switching his alfalfa out for maximum grass hay. And check your diet for vitamin and mineral balance. After all that, if nothing changes, THEN I’d consider hauling to the vet school.

[Pepsy]

Hi
I agree that most horses can eat alfalfa, and do great. My comment to stop the alfalfa is because it is the easiest, quickest, trial to do, Can be done today. Horse can start back on alfalfa anytime. Why not rule this out before spending more money on tests, medicines, shoes, another veterinarian, a different farrier, etc. Sometimes the simpler solution works.

[S1969]

@Ridethroughit23

Been two weeks and we’re getting worse again, and now he doesn’t look sound. His feet are starting to flare, which they’ve never done before. He is getting increasingly sensitive on hard ground, though I’ve been using keratex.

I missed this part in the middle of the post - because you had initially said he was sound.

@Ridethroughit23

Farrier doesn’t agree and with new x rays is very confident he can continue to correct his angles. So I stick with barefoot and start ulcer treatment. He’s never taken a lame step at this point.

I think a big part of the answer is the obvious one. His feet hurt!!

[starsandsun]

Please do not “just put him back on Gastroguard.”

That thinking, which was exactly mine for years, caused such gastric changes in my horse that he nearly died as a result.

It’s not without deleterious side effects.

[OverandOnward]

OK so … not there to see you ride or handle this horse, so this is total speculation …

First, you are to be commended OP for searching diligently for resolutions to this horse’s problems. For continuing to try to make this right for him. Completely understandable that you feel as if now you are hitting a wall. It is massively frustrating to try this hard and not have an answer.

A lot of the behavior you describe, in the barn and under saddle, is not unusual for a young energetic TB. Not every horse behaves that way, but some do. Your barn mates and trainer who do see him and you regularly seem to be giving you this feedback. Also, you describe the horse showing different behavior at the old barn, but since then the unwanted behavior is escalating over time.

Unfortunately the kind of reactionary behavior by a horse can be intimidating. If you are in any way hesitant, on the ground or in the saddle, it gets worse and worse. Maybe the escalation is in response to physical symptoms. But maybe it is just a horse being a horse, in a situation that isn’t getting his attention in the way he needs.

Also you say that this horse is a step up for you. You spent a long time on another horse with a different make-up, and understandably wanted a change. But maybe you went from a behavioral Level 3 or 6 all the way up to Level 10 1/2, without realizing it.

It’s a hard thing to consider, but do give some thought to if you feel as if you may be over your head with this horse’s behavior. Pretty much from day one.

Can you turn your horse over to a trainer experienced with re-starting OTTB’s for a month or three, and see what happens? The trainer could either validate what you are experiencing, or show another way to handle and ride the horse that is more successful. If you do this, don’t continue to work with the horse at all while the horse is with the trainer. Take a break from the crazy - you’ve certainly earned it. Let the trainer do a solo full evaluation.

Sometimes we get too caught up in the storybook and movie narratives. That we do all of the riding and training and work ourselves. That if we try hard, and keep trying and trying everything, we will overcome anything. That is not necessarily how things work in the real world.

Those are my first thoughts, based on your initial post, OP. I’ve been down the endless rabbit holes of exploring one physical problem after another when maybe that wasn’t the real core issue (and I do believe that physical is an important place to explore). Everyone has an idea, everyone has a suggestion, everyone has a guru and/or a cure for our problem(s). And yes doubtless there are some real physical things to address, every horse always has them. But maybe the real answer is elsewhere.

[OverandOnward]

@Ridethroughit23

I want to just give up and let him be another retiree. I’m over this. The hobby is only a stressor now. I don’t want to do this anymore.

You don’t have to do this any more.

Sometimes people hit a wall. That is OK. And it’s ok to take a step back and take care of yourself first for a while.

As long as the horse is getting good care, trust me the horse doesn’t care if you aren’t out there trying all the things. While you take a mental & physical rest.

There is no requirement to spend enless amounts of money trying to correct a situation that still doesn’t get better. He’s not in ongoing pain, does not have a serious disease or injury, he’s fine if he just chills out for a while.

You can think about re-framing and re-tracking this horse’s trajectory with you, even to moving him on. And perhaps going a different direction with a different horse. Even giving horses “a break” altogether. A mental & physical break for you. And a chance to explore if horses or something else gives you the satisfaction and good feelings you need to balance out the fullness of your life. It doesn’t mean that you might not do horses again some day - but you don’t have to.

You don’t have to justify what you are doing to others. The opinions of others have had a lot of influence on you, per your narrative. They may or may not be right. But you don’t have to keep doing things because you sense that it is someone else’s expectation. You can follow your own path, with or without an explanation to anyone else. “I’m stepping back for a while” or “I’m taking a different direction now” is enough for them.

If someone wants to get a bit snitty because you aren’t fulfilling their expectations, even if they seem to be privately judging you – so what. That’s on them.

You can step away from this horse. You have the right to decide that this is not the horse for you, and another horse might be better for you, or you want to give horses some distance for a time. You can turn him over to a trainer, or sell him as-is to someone with vast successful experience with this behavior.

Sometimes the ideas, opinions and influences of other people who are in close proximity and frequently in our ear when we are at the barn can become not only overwhelming, but also insensitive to what we really need to do next. It can be awkward with them when we start turning down those voices in our own head and not following all of their expectations. They have good intentions and want what is best for us. But they don’t necessarily know what that is. And if we change our attitude toward them a bit, they get used to it.