Who would ever shell out money for a horse like this? He was close to perfect for the OP until they moved him. Literally overnight he came apart. Horse didn’t even give time to interact with the OP before being difficult and continuing on a downhill slide.
As others mentioned go back with shoes all around, Gastroguard and get this horse back in work like it was with a rider who won’t be intimidated and knows how to ride and read a horse who no longer wants to work.
I really think that he has lost his work ethic and isn’t shy about doing whatever he thinks will keep life easy and doing as he chooses.
OP, my heart hurts for you… what a difficult situation.
So, it seems that regardless of the cause, it began happening right out of the gate, within the first couple of days of arriving at the new place-- before the shoeing changes, the addition of alfalfa, and you even being on his back (he was tense and angry in crossties).
Whether it is a physical/health problem or training issue or mix of the two, the horse that you tried off-site is clearly not the horse you brought home. Someone mentioned it above, and I cringe to speak to it again… but even though he appeared bright and energetic when you tried him, I’m wondering if he could have been on something to mask pain (as opposed to something that sedated him)? I know some calming pastes, etc. claim to not dull the horse, so that might be a possibility as well?
Another thought is that he was already ulcer-prone or had sub-clinical ulcers before you purchased him, but the stress of coming into a new situation triggered full-blown, symptomatic ulcers (??).
The other possibility is that, as others have mentioned, this is a 4yo OTTB who was initially in a brand-new environment (and it’s now just become habit) and may be testing his limits and “using his words” in ways to show what he likes and doesn’t like. For sporthorses in particular, the timeframe of ages 4-5 can be super, super difficult. In addition to this possibly explaining his behavior, it is more than ok in light of this reality to give yourself permission to do what you need to do to be and feel safe and not be miserable at the barn. If that means only riding in lessons, fine. If that means turning over all his riding to your trainer for now, do it. If you need to first put him in training somewhere else to sell him and walk away, make peace with that.
I commend you for all you’re doing to get to the bottom of this.
I don’t think so. I don’t know that horses even have a “work ethic “ I think it’s their basic temperament and their training and routine. Some horses, like people, are just more resilient and other are not. Some horses are tougher than others.
In general, TBs are known to have a lot of heart but I don’t think their stereotypical temperament is “resilient and tough”. Of course some are. And others are my TB - thin-skinned, sensitive, needs working conditions to be perfect to be happy.” (She’s also quite nosy and opinionated, like an annoying neighbor.)
My guess is that this horse could go back to near perfect with changes to the environment and time.
If I were standing in your moccasins, I’d give the horse some different sort of hoof support and take him off the alfalfa, then wait a couple weeks to see what changes occur, if any.
Wild card thought: I have a mare that is similarly sensitive to being brushed or touched in certain ways, and she likewise had physical problems that caused a constellation of pain in other places: original problem was in her back, and she compensated for that with her hind legs so her hocks hurt, and that caused tension and pain in her upper neck and poll, and so on.
Turns out she had head shakers syndrome to a degree. She didn’t fling her head violently, like I saw on Youtube, but she’d shake it much more subtly. On bad days - especially if it were windy and overcast - she would be really irritable and the touch of her own tail against her legs would make her startle badly. Her whole being was seemingly electrified. She wanted no touch at all and would bite the air at grooming or the saddle. Some days she’d be mellow as can be, a big ol love bug. The next day she could be a freaking mess and borderline dangerous.
My other thought is that after you’ve dealt with shoes and taken her off alfalfa, I would ask nothing of her for those two weeks. No riding. I’d be present but ask no more of her than taking her for a hand graze. You might look up Warwick Schiller’s videos on creating connection. (He has lots on Youtube, or you can subscribe at his website.) You and your horse may find value in re-establishing trust and friendship. By “fixing” small behaviors, some of the bigger behaviors may dissolve.
They most certainly do. Just like people you have those who work and those who do all they can not too.
While it might not be the norm there are some horses who decide they would just rather not do what you ask and especially when what you are asking is a step up in difficulty or harder than they have been doing or if suddenly they have lots of time off. They can be pretty bad , literally overnight it seems.
This horse was being worked consistently and hard enough to be started over fences and went perfectly as per OP. Unless he was drugged or she got a different horse than the one she tried, my money is on ulcers ( as per scope) and intimidation.
Yes but “work ethic” in humans is about pride and responsibility, but we can’t apply those traits to horses. They likely feel no pride in doing a good job, or responsibility to put in the appropriate training/schooling to get the job done.
Finding your horse’s “currency” is important - for lots of horses it’s just routine. When their routine is broken, things may start to fall apart. Other horses respond better to certain types of riding, and when that is not offered to them, they may protest. That’s why some horses make great lesson horses, and many others absolutely DO NOT.
I just don’t believe that good lesson horses have a different “work ethic” - they have a different temperament. Some horses will bravely work through discomfort/pain (or bouncing/flapping beginners on their back), and others will object to even just mildly not perfect conditions.
I think everyone is in agreement that ulcers are a big possibility. And feet, and environment.
I think “work ethic” in horses is absolutely a thing, though their motivations are of course different from ours. Some horses LOVE to have a “job” to do. They crave the physical and mental stimulation it provides. They will try and push through a little discomfort or confusion. Other horses very plainly resent being asked to do anything that isn’t their idea. They can be trained to be obedient, but they will never voluntarily give you more than the bare minimum.
Whatever you want to call it, this “work ethic” factor is different from temperament. Either of these types may be dull or reactive, hot or sluggish, and everything in between.
More on topic, OP, remember that when you hear hoofbeats, you should think horses, not zebras. I think you are a little traumatized by your previous experience and need to step back and take a deep breath.
If this were my horse, I’d get him back in shoes, group turnout, and a regular program. Change nothing else for at least a few weeks and then reevaluate. He’s a young TB and probably was initially just out of sorts over the move. Then he figured out that he could intimidate you, and now a new habit has been created as his go-to response to discomfort and things he doesn’t really want to do. You say that your trainer and the more experienced riders at your barn think he’s fine. Can you put the horse in full training for a month? Remove your emotions from the scenario and see what your trainer has to say then. Some horses just absolutely MUST be in a regular program to thrive, and OTTBs are accustomed to living a highly structured life.
As with everything, that needs to be taken with a hefty helping of salt. There is no one right answer for every horse. A thin-soled, sensitive horse is going to be more comfortable in shoes 99% of the time.
I’m sorry to suggest this, but you’ll need to put some serious work into this horse. I understand if you just don’t find this fun anymore.
Re: your OP. My Westfalen was similar as a 4 year old and I’m not a bad rider. He wasn’t food aggressive because he was always fed alone. He broke the cross ties 6 times although he was handled daily and started by a GP dressage rider and breeder. Honestly, I could brush the near side leg but he’d freak if brushed the far side leg. He was traumatized by the trees that grew too close to the side of the arena because it was dark (he was raised in a very open place). Wanted to go undersaddle with his head in the air. Was freakishly hypervigilant. I know his entire life story and the people who raised and started him (my former trainer) - nothing bad happened to him, this was his mind. Scoped for ulcers, vet expected to find bleeding ulcers but found only a couple of lesions pulling the endoscope out so we treated him aggressively. I can’t say that changed his attitude.
Long story short of him injuring two professionals (broke one’s collar bone), I took him to a Natural Horsemanship trainer who takes dressage lessons with one of the founders of the USDF. Long story short, he was a hot mess, ready to buck and bolt at first with groundwork. Trainer did 3 months of mostly groundwork and said he wasn’t sure if he could get through to this horse. I said “please try for another month or two!!!” What was I going to do with him?
Somewhere in the 4 month mark, my horse had is “Hellen Keller” moment with one of the exercises being taught. He learned that HE was responsible for making the decisions and not just reacting. He learned how to learn instead of react. And that interactions with people were about learning things. Building on things. Learning new things.
We had an accident where he fell over with me. I didn’t ride for 3 months and the farrier and the NH trainer decided to pull the hind shoes. When I started riding again, it became clear he wasn’t comfortable. My vet is a certified in acupuncture and massage therapy, and when she worked on him she saw how sore his back was. “He needs hind shoes”. On they went.
Fast forward many years. He’s 14 now. He’s shown a lot of nutty behavior over the years that structural and muscular issues were ruled out. For example, he went through a phase where he threatened to buck when I got on. Saddles always fitted, back and withers xrays were fine, he was getting massage and collumated red light therapy from vet… One day, I yelled at him “QUIT!! NO!!” and he stopped and lowered his head and walked off. Off we went to work. With THIS horse, I’ve learned he can freak out about something in his mind but when yelled at or reprimanded (don’t wan’ to walk into the water at the “ditch of Death”? You can be hesitant or stop, and we’ll work through it. Try to jump up the bank and run me over? I’m going to whip the snot out of you to show you what a bad decision you just made), it redirects his thoughts and he goes on his merry way.
He’s in his own pasture with shared run-in shed 24/7 except for inclement weather, in which he has a dedicated stall. He has buddies over the fence. While he has been attached to his buddies, he’s developed into not a great candidate for a buddy in his pasture because he becomes very food aggressive. He’s not starving and never had to share food…ever. In fact, he’ll become a potato by the end of the summer. Why he wants to run horses off of 6 dumps of hay and corner the horse in the pasture if he can at feeding but no other time? Who knows. After his calorie-pumping 4-7 years, my vet says he MAY be looking at a grazing muzzle in the future. Horses.
We have an amazing partnership at this point. He’ll always try me and I have the confidence to say “nice try but no” and he says “OK. What was I supposed to do?” We’re schooling dressage very nicely now as he has learned how to learn and use his body. He was a mess at 4-6 years old and I think if he landed with a dressage trainer at that time, he’d have blown out and would be in a very not good situation right now. He was a better trained mess as a 6-9 year old. Move something from “here” to “there”, his world would unravel. It’s better now but he notices EVERYTHING!
I’ve stayed at the NH trainer’s barn for 10 years, and he and the owners and I are good friends. I exposed my horse to dragging items, tarps, cow work, etc. He about lost his mind several times and we quickly backed him off until he could get a mental handle on things. That’s his personality and what makes him comfy. He has learned to know I won’t put him in harm’s was (whatever it is that day) and I trust that he will not choose to put me in harms way, although he still can react. I barn-sit not infrequently and have had to deal with problem horses. Some horses are aggressive because they had to compete for food. Some horses are food aggressive because they just are. Those horses don’t get to eat until I tell them they can eat. If you are assertive and fair, they quickly get that the person is the boss, they aren’t. Even the total farm boss mustang mare will wait for the human to decide to dump her food.
While considering your barnmates’ advice, this is between you and your vet. I know there are a lot of NH horsemanship quacks out there. Maybe you can find one who can help you get over behavioral issues? I can say I’ve done dressage clinics with some of the best, from here and Germany. None targeted behavior over movement.
If your horse is ouchy on hard ground, it needs shoes. Period. Likely all the time. My horse was barefoot until 4 years old when he started work and his flares were not compatible with the work. Developed flares because he needed shoes. He developed flares behind again when the hind shoes were pulled after our accident. My horse needs shoes. Do I love paying for them? No. No one does. My horse needs them to stay balanced and comfy with upper level work
My friend pulled her new horse’s shoes because her farrier thought the horse had good enough feet to go barefoot, the ground froze 7 days later and the horse developed laminitis. The horse couldn’t be ridden for 9 months.
while I recognize some horses don’t do well with alfalfa, my hot-head was fed alfalfa from the moment he arrived because he had ulcers (the pH of the alfalfa helps combat an acidic stomach) and he did just fine with it. His wackiness didn’t change at all but those bales helped his stomach and his weight. Pellets are mostly stems and do little.
I’d say do groundwork all the time but EFFECTIVE groundwork. I can hook you up with someone who can help you online.
Shoe him.
I’m not impressed with your vet from what you post. Can you consider a second opinion? There’s no issues or problems with moving vets. Ask around locally and at different barns for good vets.
I’ve babbled on and on. I hope you can glean something useful from this! Sorry!
We basically agree but use the term " work ethic " differently. In both people and in horses I believe that it is a learned skill not something you are born wanting to do. No matter if it is your horse or your children ( in my case) the balance of work and reward is an individual thing.
I think we do basically agree - but a horse could be started by a really fair trainer and have a “good work ethic”, and then be sold to another owner that asks too much (or many other things) and then the horse may become resistant to working.
So, I think that’s just temperament and environment. Some horses will push through much more adversity than others, but I don’t think that means they have a better work ethic, or that those that object have a bad work ethic.
Some horses are physically more sensitive; some horses are much smarter than others, and some have easier temperaments, etc. I think those are all factors in how well they work.
Back to the OP’s horse - I don’t think anyone can conclude that the horse has a poor work ethic, or that this horse will always be a challenge. Not until you can rule out the physical issues, at any rate.
This. Some horses need a good loud wake up call to get through their fog - whether it’s anger or fear or bossiness.
I have a similar hyper-vigilant whacko. When I moved her a few years ago, BOs thought I was nuts because I yelled at her from outside the field when she got turned out with the others. At that time they didn’t get that left to her own devices she would have run the field ragged instead of systematically explaining to her new herd mates that she was in charge and there were certain protocols that had to be followed.
Anyway, BOs thought I was nuts then. Now, if they see her fixing to cause trouble they yell at her because they know it works.
With all due respect, this is where your argument falls apart for me. Horses are not just like people. Seeing them through that lens is doing the animal a disservice, IMO.
I was comparing them to people ONLY to make it easier for someone reading to understand . I have never in my life given any animal the same abilities as a human as far as thinking , feeling or understanding.
I was simply stating that “like people” you have horses who will work and those who will complain, balk and do everything they can to intimidate to hopefully get out of work.
Under the right circumstances with certain handlers many horses accomplish this.
Lyme can make them aggressive, spooky and just plain awful- I’d try Doxy and see if he improves after a week- if so, treat for 8 weeks (with probiotics added)- if no change, take him off after short treatment
I would call the previous owners and see if they had any insight. Might get an “Oh yeah, don’t put him on alfalfa, it makes him crazy!” Or similar. Wouldn’t hurt to ask.
I understand. I just don’t agree. I don’t think horses know what “work” is and when they balk or behave in a way to avoid doing what we ask of them, it’s due to something other than a “lack of work ethic.” It’s discomfort, fear, lack of education, etc. As prey animals, horses are hard-wired not to waste energy so that they’ll have it when needed to flee from predators. We ask them to use their energy for our own recreation and sport, which goes against their nature. We use pressure and release to manipulate their natural instincts into something we can use. If a horse doesn’t cooperate easily, that’s more likely due to his inherent nature as a horse than trying to “get out of work.” He’s not trying to “get out of work.” He’s trying to “be a horse.” We’re asking him to do something that isn’t in his best interest as a horse. It’s amazing they let us do what we do with them at all. Therefore, I wouldn’t label those who are more difficult as lacking “work ethic.” It has a negative connotation that the horse doesn’t deserve.
Well , then we will have to agree to disagree. Bad behavior and intimidating the rider/ handler are not always fear and pain.
This right here blows your theory out of the water for me. If this were true all horses would be the same as they all have that " inherent horse nature".
Every horse I have ever owned, trained or ridden for others has been uniquely different in likes, dislikes and temperament , which influenced how they reacted to being started under saddle and learning and in fixing bad behavior the riders had allowed…
This is a bit of a tangent, but I’ve just been reading Mark Rashid’s most recent book, For the Love of the Horse, and in it he makes a point about people talking about a horse “respecting” their handler’s space or “not respecting” their handler’s space, and I thought his comments might be analogous to this issue of “work ethic.”
His point is that horse’s don’t have/can’t have a psychological comprehension of “respect.” They do what they have learned to do. A horse that “respects” his handler’s space by staying outside a two to three foot bubble has simply learned that they get a release from pressure when they stay there; the horse that often crowds a handler typically has been (perhaps inadvertently) trained that being right in the handler’s pocket is the place they get a release. The horse that just crashes into the handler has often not received consistent handling about where the release will occur, or they don’t think the handler is actually in control of the situation.
Anyway, there might be an analogy to “work ethic.” The horse that has a work ethic has had consistent training from handlers that consistently reward engaged behavior; those without a work ethic have not (necessarily) received that consistent handling. Or the handler consistently asks them questions that they haven’t learned how to answer.
Except that this character (or lack thereof) is blatantly obvious at a very, very young age. By the time she was a yearling, my current riding horse was practically begging for a “job”. My current yearling was exhibiting the same characteristics long before she was weaned. Not coincidentally, these two horses are half sisters.
Horses with a strong work ethic - however you want to describe or name it - are a joy to live and work with. They are easy, easy, easy to start not because they are dull or insensitive but because they WANT to please and work with their humans.
Until you’ve experienced it for yourself, it’s hard to understand. But, once you have owned a horse like this, you’ll be spoiled for sure.
“Work ethic” exists on a spectrum. My girls are on the extreme positive end. If you haven’t dealt with those horses on the extreme negative end, consider yourself lucky. They do exist, and they are incredibly frustrating and often dangerous to manage.
