Any one have RIVERMAN offspring

[riveau]

Another nearly comatose Riverman here. I raised mine from birth and he has been easy from the beginning. Starting him under saddle was a piece of cake, even though it was my first attempt at the starting process. His mother, my personal riding horse, was hot with a good work ethic.

He’ll go forward willingly under saddle when asked, but when left to his own devices prefers to expend less energy. He’s also very sensible at shows, on trail rides, etc.

His worst trait is that he is suspicious of new people. Once he gets to know someone, his affectionate side comes out.

[Hattie]

Wow - if Riverman is breeding 250 mares a year then I think the Germans were stupid to sell him. Hilltop is raking in $625,000 a year! The consensus of replies is either he has a good work ethic or a bad work ethic, lazy or flighty. I wonder how much depends on the initial handling and training these young horses receive.

[riveau]

Hattie- I think you hit the nail on the head!

[Hattie]

szipi - just curious. Didn’t you stand a Riverman son a few years ago?

[eggbutt]

@Hattie;2027470

I wonder how much depends on the initial handling and training these young horses receive.

BINGO! All of the Riverman offspring I’ve known have been super intelligent and almost a cookie cutter stamp of Riverman. BUT, initial handling has been the make or break issue with the three I’ve known. Two are wonderful and one is a bit of a spook and difficult due to mishandling and rough training as a youngster. Horses never forget a hard hand :no:

[Oakstable]

I doubt Riverman is breeding 250 mares a year. Where did that figure come from?

[Lily5453]

[QUOTE=Noctis’ special elf;2026651]
I’ve known and handled several of his offspring, and while they are lovely animals with exceptional conformation and to-die-for movement, I wouldn never buy one for myself. I’m an ammie and just don’t like to work that hard! The one’s I’ve known have been very difficult, sometimes flighty, and have a very poor work ethic. With the right rider (read: a pro who wants to take a fantastic moving horse up through the levels) they can be superstars. For an ammie who just wants to enjoy their ride, more often than not, I think they are a bad choice. There are always exceptions and I’m sure there are some quiet, easy ones out there, but more often than not, I hear the bad stories.[/QUOTE]

I don’t know, I know of several bloodlines that are known for one thing or another, but I like seeing each horse as an individual before making a grand assumption. I think Riverman offspring are like many other offspring, you’ll get the good and the bad with as many as he has bred.

[Cartier]

[QUOTE=szipi;2026599]
Hi,
I ahve trained and handled many Riverman offspring. The ones out of super laid-back mares are OK. In general, however, stay away from them. A lot of them have difficult temperaments and even more have very poor work ethics. He gets 250 mares a year - so you will hear success stories. But there’s a reason why the Germans sold him - a very good reason. www.prairiepinesfarm.com[/QUOTE]

@Hattie;2027470

Wow - if Riverman is breeding 250 mares a year then I think the Germans were stupid to sell him. Hilltop is raking in $625,000 a year! The consensus of replies is either he has a good work ethic or a bad work ethic, lazy or flighty. I wonder how much depends on the initial handling and training these young horses receive.

Haven’t a clue if Riverman is getting 250 mares a year, that sure seems high. He’s been here in the USA since 1995… so, if those numbers were true, it would mean he has about 2,750 offspring in the USA, ranging up to 10 years of age. My only comment would be, “Where the heck are they all?

None of the data I’ve seen from our breed registry supports those numbers of foals.

As for why he was sold to America, I think he only had two foal crops on the ground in Germany at the time he was sold to the USA, and the oldest crop was only two years old, so I doubt there was any general negative consensus about his foals in Germany in training / under saddle. His first foal crop was too young to be under saddle when he ws sold to the USA. The sellers probably liked the offer Hilltop made and sold him.

From what we hear, his foals are athletic and talented, but they require experienced sensitive trainers. Possibly the problems some have had with Rivermans is more a problem of a young horse not being well matched to a particular trainer or training method. We hear that once they get going they are wonderful.

[Oakstable]

The trainer who bought my Riverman gelding would probably be happy to share her insights, but she is rarely on the internet now that she has her own baby. I know she feels he matured tremendously between the ages of 5 and 6 even tho she couldn’t do much with him because of pregnancy. His work ethic now is solid, and he really tries hard to do what is asked of him, and he succeeds to her satisfaction.

I bet Scott Hassler would be very forthcoming on Riverman attributes.

I think 50-60% or more temperament comes from the dam.

[idtogo]

a good friend of mine has a riverman baby rising 4 years. He is lightly backed and has been a gem for her. she adores him and he seems to take everything in his stride. He is out of an ottb that she events at training level.

[elizabeth_Callahan]

I’ve had 7. Some easy, some not. All very talented - great to handle on the ground and a couple were easy to start while others ( including a mare I kept - ) very difficult. Extremely athletic, brave, can jump anything but sensitive and really a pro’s ride. I am riding her but she is not the type you can get on twice a week.
Beautiful gaits - was just starting a prelim this June when she got injured. Hope to get her back competing and do a 1* next year.
Anoither one I bred is going prelim in KS. I love them but they can be difficult. I would breed to him again and hope too - just need the right mare

[Oakleigh]

Cartier, 250 is a low estimate. Add a couple dozen to that and it will be more accurate. Many of the breeders I know who had fillies put the fillies right back into their breeding program. I personally have seen many of them in the low hunters with amateur owners, and the low level dressage ring with their amateur owners. I have seen some competing in higher level dressage, combined driving, and higher level hunters. Remember, only a small percentage of all horse owners actually compete their horses. Many of his offspring are wonderful companions, trail horses and recreation horses.

I have produced three offspring by Riverman. All three were reflections of their dams, in temperament. All three have been very athletic over fences, with very good form. I sold two of my Riverman offspring, and understand they are competing in the hunter world. My stallion, whom I have kept, is also competing as a hunter. He will be first year green this winter. His temperament is that of a lap dog. Totally sweet.

Oakleigh

[Cartier]

[QUOTE=Oakleigh;2028495]
Cartier, 250 is a low estimate. Add a couple dozen to that and it will be more accurate. [/QUOTE]

So you are saying that Riverman has over 275 foals per year… or more than 3000 total offspring in the USA. Hmmm? I find that difficult to believe. Not saying you’re wrong, just that I find that difficult to believe.

From page 60 of the Old NA 2006 Breeding Statistics, he has a total of 177 foals presented to Old NA from 1997 through 2005. Are you saying that there have been something like 2,800 Riverman foals registered with the AHHA and the GOV? But only 177 with Old NA? I find that hard to believe. The AHHA is a small registry and I really doubt the GOV has registered more Riverman foals over the years than the Oldenburg NA. Considering Riverman’s stud fee of $2,500, I’d imagine that a good percentage of his foals are registered. I doubt that there are that many Grade (or unregistered) mares bred to him.

While I’m sure that not all breeders register their foals, registering foals makes them much more marketable (valuable). If a breeder has paid a $2,500 stud fee, I’d think they’d want to maximize their profit potential.

I would think that the Old NA Breeders Guide is a good representation of the total number of foals Riverman has produced over the years… a starting point. The Breeders Guide puts the total of Old NA foals at 177 total from 1997 - 2005. I could see doubling or possibly tripling that figure, which puts his total foals at about 530.

Still, it’s near impossible to know for sure. There is no independent entity tracking how many breedings a stallion gets. People can claim most any number they want.

[ladydoctor]

I saw a young Riverman gelding recently at an A show in Atlanta. I was drawn to him because of his look and movement. Oh, and his amazing form over fences but most especially because he was so laid back and agreeable. It turns out he is only 3 and has only been under saddle for a couple of months. He had been shown on the line and since he was doing so well, they put him in a couple of over fences classes. I’ve had many young horses and have never had one as easy as this one looked. He is a future super star. I would definitely breed my mare to Riverman after seeing this one!

[f4leggin]

Initial handling is important, but for those of us who had difficult ones (I had one), it sounds like you think it’s our fault or we did something to cause the trouble? I find that hard to believe and not fair. I totally agree that with a difficult horse, initial handling that is correct (whatever that may be for the horse) would make all the difference in the world, but the fact remains that they are difficult in the first place. Mine came out very hard to handle and with lots of patience and the right owner is a well loved talented 5 year old. But, to be honest, I didn’t know if she would make five considering how many times she threw herself to the ground in a fit in her first year of life. Jill

[Cartier]

[QUOTE=f4leggin;2029086]
Initial handling is important, but for those of us who had difficult ones (I had one), it sounds like you think it’s our fault or we did something to cause the trouble? I find that hard to believe and not fair. I totally agree that with a difficult horse, initial handling that is correct (whatever that may be for the horse) would make all the difference in the world, but the fact remains that they are difficult in the first place. Mine came out very hard to handle and with lots of patience and the right owner is a well loved talented 5 year old. But, to be honest, I didn’t know if she would make five considering how many times she threw herself to the ground in a fit in her first year of life. Jill[/QUOTE]
Boy Jill,

I hope we don’t see this discussion as being about assigning blame or fault. We all click with different personalities. What works well for one trainer /owner may be a huge headache for another. That doesn’t make one right and the other wrong. We are all different… much the same as - stallions are different, and each subsequent offspring will be unique. Also, with any of these comments about what an animal was like in training, you have to put them in the context of who is making the comment[s]. For example, our trainer has worked with many Contucci offspring and finds them to have very good work ethics… they are ridable and really seem to want to please. But our trainer has a particular skill-set that may make her especially in sync with Contucci offspring. Possibly other trainers are more in sync with other lines. That doesn’t make one right and one wrong. Like many, we have heard that Riverman offspring can be a challenge, so I would guess that, depending on whether you want a sensitive athletic horse or not, they may or may not be the right bloodline for you.

[Bogey2]

From what we hear, his foals are athletic and talented, but they require experienced sensitive trainers. Possibly the problems some have had with Rivermans is more a problem of a young horse not being well matched to a particular trainer or training method.

I saw one at a breed show with a top trainer/handler and the horse gave him a lot of trouble.

[Cartier]

[QUOTE=Bogey2;2029318]
I saw one at a breed show with a top trainer/handler and the horse gave him a lot of trouble.[/QUOTE]I don’t doubt that, but possibly your “top trainer/handler” was just not suited to the horse… also, horses are the product of every experience they’ve ever had, good and bad. So, if you have a foal that is pre-programmed to require a special skill-set, and that foal is not in a situation to nurture and bring out the best in the foal, you may indeed have a problem as the years go by. I do not doubt for one instant that there may have been problems. But we have seen explosions over the years at shows, and I can’t say that there is a consistent bloodline involved.

Bottom line, like you, we look at what a stallion is known to produce, and file that info with other data about the stallion. It all factors into our breeding decisions. For example, though we respect him tremendously, Baloubet and his sons are not something we would want to deal with (even with the extraordinary talent). But that is (in part) a reflection of our limited skill set. We are not capable of dealing with a Baloubet. Actually, few people are.

[Diva98]

I have one! She is 8 now, but I have had her since she was 2. She was a challenge - to say the least - when she was younger. I think the first winter, I fell off at least once a day but now she is a dream and one of the barn pets. I showed her in the Adult Amateurs and was zone champion last year and moved up to the A/Os this year with good success. Because I got married this summer, a junior in the barn borrowed her for the second half of the summer and qualified for medal finals and took her to Harrisburg. She has the perfect amateur horse mentality - saves my butt all the time and never holds it against me. Full of personality and sweet as can be - to humans at least. She certainly holds her own in the herd of mares she goes out with.

I can’t say enough good things about her. And I will certainly be asking this board’s advice when we decide to breed her. I have some pics in my web shots.

[szipi]

more Riverman

Hi,
Well, in Germany the Germans would not breed to Riverman, he only gets that many breedings because breeders in the States do not always breed based on facts but a lot of them breed on hype (of course there are lexceptions). So it made perfect sense for them to sell a stallion who did not work for them. Only in America can you find 250 fools to breed to him…but as much is true, out of 250 horses so will turn out well. Also, out of the countless Riverman offspring very few of them are actually worked hard or demanded to reach higher level in sport - so the owwners, who do not know any better, maybe perfectly satisfied with them at their level. it doesn’t mean that they are actually really good horses.

I myself never stood Rivano (I guess that’s what you are talking about). I trained him for a period and I did my best with him, as I have been doing my best with all the other Riverman offspring I have trained. But you can’t make me say that just because I have trained Riverman offspring to make ends meet, that I would ever breed to him.

I encourage you to call up the Holsteiner Verband and ask them what they think of Riverman. Go to the source!