not all of us want FEI horses, just to clarify. I bred my mare to riverman because:
A) his conformation complimented hers
b) his movement should improve hers
c) his jumping should improve hers
d) she has a wonderful temperment
e) when I went to see him I fell in love with his look and personality
I think that is enough, what any breeder would want.
[QUOTE=szipi;2029594]
Hi,
Well, in Germany the Germans would not breed to Riverman, he only gets that many breedings because breeders in the States do not always breed based on facts but a lot of them breed on hype (of course there are lexceptions). So it made perfect sense for them to sell a stallion who did not work for them. Only in America can you find 250 fools to breed to him…but as much is true, out of 250 horses so will turn out well. Also, out of the countless Riverman offspring very few of them are actually worked hard or demanded to reach higher level in sport - so the owwners, who do not know any better, maybe perfectly satisfied with them at their level. it doesn’t mean that they are actually really good horses.
I myself never stood Rivano (I guess that’s what you are talking about). I trained him for a period and I did my best with him, as I have been doing my best with all the other Riverman offspring I have trained. But you can’t make me say that just because I have trained Riverman offspring to make ends meet, that I would ever breed to him.
I encourage you to call up the Holsteiner Verband and ask them what they think of Riverman. Go to the source![/QUOTE]
Again, just wondering here… if - arguendo- I concede your points, do you think that insulting American breeders is a good way to positively motivate them to change their behavior? I mean, as a way to motivate people, does it work for you?
Hmmm?
If my trainer posted these kids of remarks about a horse that I’ve paid them to train, my trainer would be fired on the spot and we would never do business again.
Nope. Not enough for what I want. I want proven high level performance. I don’t breed for lower level horses. I can’t imagine paying $2500 in stud fees to get a lower level horse either. I also can’t imagine paying that much to get a lower level horse that might have temperment issues either.
re: Cartier
Hi,
How can the truth be insulting? Do you not agree that the majority American breeders are not professionals, they only breed one or maybe two foals a year and their decisions are usually not based on hard knowledge? It is not a good or a bad thing, it is a fact of life - and operations like Hilltop just take advantage of it.
Re: to your other point. This is definitely a problem. A lot of people can’t gain knowledge because true horseman often do not dare to speak their minds for losing business. I am sorry, but what you are talking about is that if I trained your horse, I am obligated to like your horse’s sire and I am obligated to breed to him? Isn’t that kind of crazy?
My clients trust my abilities, not just as a trainer but a breeder and a judge of horseflesh as well - and because of that they get top rated training and the unaltered truth every time, all the time. If someone does not like that and someone wants me to sugarcoat things because that makes them feel better, they indeed need to look somewhere else. www.prairiepinesfarm.com
re: Lilly
Hi,
I think your points are valid, but the order is a little different. I think your first point is your last: you went to see him and you fell in love with him and the rest doesn’t matter.
You just assumed that Riverman will do all these things because you liked him, and you assumed that the temperament he throws did not matter since your mare has a super temperament. You assumed that things will work out 100% - and they may well work out 100%. And your foal may not be the next world beater, but who cares, since that wasn’t what you wanted anyway. On the other hand nobody can base a real breeding program on these assumptions.
szipi, I noticed you have two stallions and wonder why you don’t have them approved Holsteiner??? Isn’t that their registry??
[QUOTE=szipi;2029964]
Hi,
How can the truth be insulting? Calling American breeders “fools’ is generally not consider flattering. Most would find it insulting, not sure about the circles you run in. Do you not agree that the majority American breeders are not professionals, they only breed one or maybe two foals a year and their decisions are usually not based on hard knowledge? I haven’t a clue what “hard knowledge" is. Do you? It is not a good or a bad thing, it is a fact of life - and operations like Hilltop just take advantage of it. Why now, in this cherry Holiday season, do you feel the need to point out what you perceive as Hilltop’s short comings. What’s changed from last week, last month, last year? Have a glass of eggnog and lighten up.
Re: to your other point. This is definitely a problem. A lot of people can’t gain knowledge because true horseman often do not dare to speak their minds for losing business. I am sorry, but what you are talking about is that if I trained your horse, I am obligated to like your horse’s sire and I am obligated to breed to him? Isn’t that kind of crazy? Andres, if a customer comes to you and says, “I am at this skill level and am considering the purchase of this horse, of course it is appropriate for you to give whatever advice you feel is warranted. But to post on this forum blanket sweeping statements about a very specific stallion and his progeny, is not the best example of professionalism I’ve seen. At the very least, I think you are closing the door on referrals.
My clients trust my abilities, not just as a trainer but a breeder and a judge of horseflesh as well - and because of that they get top rated training and the unaltered truth every time, all the time. I am so sick of unaltered truth. Your “truth” is a subjective evaluation. If someone does not like that and someone wants me to sugarcoat things because that makes them feel better, they indeed need to look somewhere else. www.prairiepinesfarm.com [/QUOTE]
Andres, I am going to take a wild guess and suggest that you are not any too familiar with the concept of polite restraint and diplomacy. You might want to check in to it.
No Dog in this fight, but
FYI Talloaks-
http://holsteiner.com/HolsteinerDirectory/2006Directory/2006StallionProfile/Lotus_T.pdf
Dont know about the other guy.
Sorry…I find this very, very offensive. Hilltop, to my knowledge, has never taken advantage of anyone! Everytime I’ve selected a stallion from Hilltop I have included Scott, Susanne, Melissa, the entire staff at Hilltop to help me with my decision based on my mare and her qualities. I have had Hilltop personnel tell me to steer away from several of their stallions based on what I’m breeding for. I’ve had other small breeders tell me they have had the same experience with Hilltop.
Bash Riverman all you want, but please show some respect to a very well established Stallion Facility with honest, wonderful people doing their best to help breeders with their dreams.
Interesting considering that is not stated on his website~~wonder why??!! Maybe szipi can tell us.
I agree about these remarks from this trainer being out of line and unprofessional.
Someone in a position to work with a wide of variety of horses doesn’t bash a popular stallion and breeding farm without mashing a lot of toes.
No one here is suggesting that you breed a mare to Riverman.
[QUOTE=szipi;2030008]
Hi,
I think your points are valid, but the order is a little different. I think your first point is your last: you went to see him and you fell in love with him and the rest doesn’t matter.
You just assumed that Riverman will do all these things because you liked him, and you assumed that the temperament he throws did not matter since your mare has a super temperament. You assumed that things will work out 100% - and they may well work out 100%. And your foal may not be the next world beater, but who cares, since that wasn’t what you wanted anyway. On the other hand nobody can base a real breeding program on these assumptions.[/QUOTE]
again, szipi you are making grand assumptions and I cannot help but come to the conclusion you don’t know what you are talking about. to be perfectly honest, I saw conformation pictures of Riverman and decided that he was the one for my mare based on those and a video I was sent, his inspection scores, and what I had read about his offspring. Um… I think most mare owners do that to be perfectly honest. I was able, because I was in the area, to arrange a visit to hilltop following my decision. The contract was already in place at this time. Do not make assumptions when you don’t have a clue about the circumstances.
I bred this foal for myself. My mare has a proven record of having foals with super temperament, even from less than great temperament stallions, therefore, I figure that was worth the risk. I also put two and two together, A) a lot of people come in here saying “well, I bred a hot mare to him and have a hellion”…gee… I wonder why. like most agree, mare gives 50-60% of the temperament, and my mare has given 100% thus far. This foal is for me to compete in eventing. This horse I hope to move up the levels in eventing. I do not want to be grand prix dressage rider or grand prix show jumper, but if this guy makes it to advanced, I will be happy.
Oh yeah, I am not showing my mare in dressage… Again an assumption when you don’t know the circumstances actually, we event. Riverman has several offspring competing at preliminary and above, most of which are younger. Most Riverman offspring I have heard are in the hunters, so there isn’t an influx of his offspring in this field. Guess what, people need to try it for there to be more.
I don’t need them to be jumper shows, from my research, Riverman offspring improve the mares movement, except the walk and improve the jump. Hilltop is VERY willing to discuss your mare and find a stallion that suits her; they will not just breed the mare just to gain a few dollars. If Riverman is not a good fit, they will recommend something else. In my case, with photos and descriptions of my mare and what she has done it was agreed it was a very good fit. I find it rude that you have posted these comments with no basis against Hilltop. Hopefully you have some pretty good evidence, otherwise this might be taken as slander.
szipi, I wonder how exactly you go about breeding mares? If you don’t look at their faults and try to find a stallion that can improve upon those faults, what do you look at? Do you go by bloodlines exclusively? You don’t ride a pedigree, szipi. I think in my case I did a very good job researching this match and no, it might not come out 100% but you can breed to what you might consider the best stallion in the world and it still might not come out exactly how you want. Isn’t that all breeding is? a guessing game? Coming up with the best equation possible and hoping it comes out right in the end?
I’m sorry if you have a personal vendetta against Riverman and his offspring, but do NOT take it out on us, the Riverman fans. On another note, I do not appreciate your assumptions, condescending attitude and general “know-it-all” air that you have. Please, feel free to continue, but I doubt that it will help your business.
Well said, Lily.
I think his stallion, Lotus, sounds interesting, but the condescending attitude of the owner is indeed a turnoff.
The stallion owners with true class never, NEVER, criticize another stallion or breeding operation publicly in a forum. Even another registry.
Exactly, Lilly and Oakstable.
I love my Riverman grandson. And my Riverman Granddaughter. I’d breed to Remarkable again in a heartbeat, if he were still available. Both babies are bright, easy to handle, willing to please, and superior movers.
Did all of that come from Riverman? Nope. But his quality sure didn’t hurt!
Yes, I have to say it is a turn off. I rather like pedigree on Lotus T (especially the prepotant nature of What A Pleasure/For The Moment in the dam line), but when a look at the total stallion+owner package, I start to think “why bother?”
I don’t have a dog in this fight, but I’d respect a person a lot more if they just came out and said “I have trained several of his offspring and based on my experiences, he’s not my choice as a stallion.” Who can argue with that? Instead of proffering vague allegations about sinister reasons the Germans sold him to the dumb Americans and the idea that if we call the verband they will tell all (because you know, that would also be so professional). The latter leaves the poster looking a bit lacking in professionalism and credibility.
Ah, krazee breeders and trainers! No chance a professional business environment will ever take hold, is there? :lol:
Yeah, what Lily said.:yes: :yes:
I get so tired of everytime someone says something less than steller about something that posters here start in with the “personal vendetta” “sour grapes” type response.
Yes, there are some cold hard facts with regard to Riverman. He has bred a ton of mares. He has NOT had very many do much in the performance ring. That is a fact. Live with it. Deal with it. American breeders will never amount to anything until they can look at facts like that and accept them.
Those of you with Riverman offspring, like them, love them, let them be your babies. But please, for pete’s sake, don’t stick you head in the sand and get mad at the facts. Just say, you are one of the lucky ones whose foal didn’t get the difficult temperment. Why is that so hard for you?
Also, if what he has produced for you is your long sought after low level horse that you are happy with, don’t get mad at the posters who say he isn’t for producing top level horses. Just say, I bred for a low level horse and got what I wanted. Why is that so hard for you??
There are stallions that are known for throwing small. There are stallions known for throwing big. There are stallions known for throwing long backs, paddling, etc, etc, etc. Why can’t we say that Riverman is known for throwing mostly low level hunters and a few event horses and you need a really laid back mare because he can throw a difficult personality? Why do the Riverman police have to come out and deny something that is so in your face, absolutely undeniable in our marketplace?
“Even another registry.”
Well, that just disqualified just about everyone on this board.
Tri,
I don’t think anyone here has become defensive about Riverman. I believe folks here have taken offense at szipi’s tone and abuse of Hilltop Farm, Inc.
Why now are you believing “everyone” should raise a horse to become Grand Prix material? Most AA’s can’t afford to go that far and don’t care to.
I believe the OP just wanted to know about Riverman offspring…not whether they are Olympic caliber horses or not. Someone please correct my interpretation of the OP if I’m incorrect.
Szipi, you are doing yourself, your stallion & your farm no favors posting in the manner that you do. Maybe you should rethink things. I don’t forsee many bookings to your stallion if this really is the way you are.
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