no, I agree eggbutt. I also think that people here are not defending riverman, no one is saying he is the “end all, be all” we are saying why we chose him, why we like what we got, or didn’t. What people are talking about when we are saying the “personal vendetta” is the attitude of one or two particular posters towards this stallion and his owners. It is fine if you dislike the stallion, but there are classy ways of saying so… not this sly “there is a REASON the germans sold him” you want to say something negative? by all means, say “he has bad manners” or “he is a vicious brute” as long as that is true… but don’t try to be coy and seemingly slander his farm… be open, be honest, be tactful.
Ditto to what Stacey said. We mare owners don’t buy just the semen, we buy into the credibility of the farm standing the stallion.
The person who bought my Riverman gelding showed 3rd level dressage in the open division and bought him to go to FEI. He was difficult to start, as I have said. He has an excellent work ethic now that he has matured.
I betcha Hilltop will be very candid if asked about Riverman. I did want to breed one to one of their other stallions a few years ago, and they suggested an alternative based on my mare.
Hilltop is a class operation. They have one of the best contracts in the industry.
My post was in response to:
“I think that is enough, what any breeder would want.”
“I’m sorry if you have a personal vendetta against Riverman and his offspring, but do NOT take it out on us, the Riverman fans.”
And, no I don’t think everyone wants a int’l level horse. But it is really is hard to reconcile warmblood breeders’ attitudes of “pay a crapload of money to have all the horses inspected, branded, DNA’d, approved, stallion tested, mare tested, etc etc etc, not to mention the “my horse comes from these great int’l sport bloodlines so he/she is worth mega mega bucks to buy, sell or breed to”” and then state, oh, btw, the horse is a low level eventer or hunter right in there with draft crosses, qh crosses, with no inspection, famous bloodlines, yadda yadda. What differentiates them in the marketplace and why should anyone go to that much trouble and money with the euro system to only compete on the same level as any basic cross out there?
I thought the whole THING of using the warmblood system was to create top end horses. Strict culling of those who couldn’t perform. Americans were getting their collective butts kicked in the international arena and so some started importing warmbloods, creating breeding programs to produce homebred “horses for the olympic sports” like so many warmblood registries put right on their websites. Now it is morphed into spending the same money, not to produce int’l horses, but to produce something that historically was random crossbreds. And we are right back to were we started.
Tri, This is a totally different topic than “who has Riverman offspring” and bashing those offspring and Hilltop Farm.
I happen to agree with you regarding American Sport Horse Breeding…BUT, I think we’ve come a long, long way in the past ten years. I don’t know that we’ll ever be able to compete with the Germans since we don’t have state stud farms and strictly controlled breeding…but who cares? Is Riverman less of a great stallion because the Germans sold him to Hilltop and they had the $$ to pay for him? Is Royal Prince less of a top stallion because Hilltop had the $$ to buy him and the Germans were prepared to sell him? Who cares?
Scott Hassler has spent hundreds of hours chairing the Sport Horse Committee of USDF and is helping US breeders become better breeders of top Sport Horses. Scott has talked endlessly about the foundation of US bred horses needs to be the finest mares we can produce. Hilltop is dedicated to producing outstanding broodmares from their awesome stallion pool. Do his efforts mean the end of the back yard breeder with money to spend on high dollar stallions, registries, registrations, trainers, etc. etc. etc? I don’t think so. And that’s the beauty of it. We carefree Americans have always enjoyed going our own way.
Here in NC we are recognizing “Bred In NC” horses at our dressage shows. It will take time but it will make a difference to those who want to make a difference.
By the way, one of the finest bred (and most expensively bred) horses I’ve personally come across lives happily at his owner’s farm living the life of leisure as a trail horse. There’s nothing in the world wrong with that either.
then don’t breed to riverman, Tri, but I feel that if you are going to defend the condescending attitude of some of the others on this board towards the FARM where he stands, well, then you might get some of the backlash as well.
I’ve been reading this thread with interest. I guess my foolish ass with a Riverman mare who has sparked interest by some pretty well known pros in both the dressage arena as well as the jumper arena ought to tell my mare that she really has a horrendous work ethic and should just revert to a pasture potatoe. That she doesn’t know work and I have no business demanding her to do more than jump cross rails. How dare I jump her around 4’ courses while my trainer helps school her much higher at his place. How dare a FEI rider ask to purchase 50% of her. Christ Andras, with all due respect, that was a bit over the top. He’s not for everyone, his offpsring aren’t either. He’s got some competing in the Grand Prix jumpers & upper levels of eventing. Some are nice hunters, nice trail horses, nice broodmares and pleasure mounts. Some are none of the above! I have no issue with folks that don’t like him as yes he does throw offspring that aren’t easy. Mine was late to mature and become rideable. I do have issue being called a fool. My goal was to jump around the AO jumpers (not the international ring) and that is exactly where we’re headed so I got what I wanted. Are there stallions out there are known for throwing easier horses and better work ethics? Absolutely, but to bash folks who breed to him, that was a bit much. Different strokes for different folks.
"He’s got some competing in the Grand Prix jumpers & upper levels of eventing. "
Ponygirl:
Would you mind sharing the names of the GP jumpers and upper level eventers? Can’t find a single GP jumper attributed to Riverman and I can only find 4 preliminary eventers.
Don’t have a dog in this fight, just would realy like to know as after reading this thread I’ve become interested in this stallion.
From Hilltop’s website re: Riverman
From Hilltop’s website:
The consistent results of Riverman offspring in the breeding, jumping, dressage, three-day, and most recently, even the driving worlds have simply astounded us. Riverman passes on his charm, poise, and athleticism and the results show it. He has made an international name for himself across disciplines that is far more than fashion. We are honored to be a part of that." --Scott Hassler, Head Trainer
In 2003, the USDF named Riverman as the leading producer in the US for offspring winning at the USDF/Cosequin Breeders Championship Finals. He shares that title with Contucci, each having six offspring earning their regional Championship titles in 2002. In 2003, his son Rill Song (Riverman-Landadel) won the Reserve Colt Championship title at Dressage At Devon and continued the Riverman offspring presence our country’s most prestigious championship ring. In 2003, a Riverman’s 6-year old son “Cody” (Riverman-Utrillo) was in the top US-Pair Driving team at the World Pair Driving Championships in France and later won the 2003 National Pair Driving Championships for driver Larry Poulin and owner Natasha. Riverman earned his place in the German FN’s 2000 statistics as one of the top sires of his generation. Riverman stood 2nd in the FN’s Jumping Index and 3rd in the Overall Index for stallions of his age group, due to the success of his offspring in both dressage and jumping competition. In the US, Riverman has produced over 64% premium offspring in the OldNA registry and many premium offspring, including Premium Select Mares with the AHHA. Riverman’s prepotency is clearly indicated not only by these statistics, but also by the championship results his offspring produce each year. Riverman’s athleticism has defining qualities that set him apart from many stallions. His clearly suspended and elevated movement has tremendous fluidity and is naturally supple. His powerful gaits are generated from an active hind end that moves with a quality of flexion and engagement that is not often found. He naturally offers the collected movements required in FEI dressage and easily takes flight in the extended movements or over jumps. His athleticism and a beautiful “type” are what he consistently offers to his mares. You can readily pick a Riverman out in a crowd.
Riverman gives his attention and 100% of his physical self over to his work each day. Riverman has a very kind disposition. He is a very polite stallion, never imposing himself on his handler or trainer. He is a composed athlete whose talents bloom under consistent and kind hands. Riverman produces reasonable, sensible, hard-working athletes.
Riverman’s pedigree offers access to many of the top bloodlines successful in international sport. His sire Redfort is by Rebel Z, the full brother to Ratina Z, the 1992 Silver medallist in Show Jumping and the highest ranked mare in the WBFSH International Breedrs Guide for 1999/2000. The influence of Alme (sire of Argentina Z, the dam of Rebel Z) adds an interesting dimension to Riverman’s pedigree. Riverman bears the world proven influence of Landego, Calypso II, Landgraf I, and Cor de la Bryere; Holsteiner legends living out a new legacy in a modern day prince
Riverman arrived in the US with strong breeding credentials to prompt his popularity. His memorable Grand Championship victory at Dressage at Devon in 1995 catapulted Riverman into the North American breeding market. His prepotency outstanding offspring has maintained this momentum. Riverman sons and daughters in Europe have earned 10’s on character and rideability in stallion and mare performance tests. Riverman offspring have represented the Holsteiner Verband at the annual Bundeschampionat (National Breeders Championships). Riverman youngsters have been sold out of Germany to Holland, Sweden, Denmark, England, the Czech Republic, and more. Through frozen semen , Riverman’s influence has extended around the globe to Australia and New Zealand where his youngsters are successful today in breeding and sport.
Riverman has many offspring competing with top results in jumping, dressage, and eventing. In one year, Eric Dierk’s Riverman gelding Rhapsody Blue went from the Pre-training to Training to Preliminary level of eventing. We look forward to future results from this athletic youngster. Riverman offspring owners share their success at dressage competitions thoughout the year, with high-scoring results and year-end awards to show for it.
Riverman is even more widely represented in the jumper arena.
Riverman’s outstanding son Reno (1996: Riverman - Caretino - Landgraf) swept the Mid-West International Jumper Futurity Finals in the year 2000, winning Best Type, Best Overall Performance, and Most Grand Prix Potential. Reno then placed 2nd in the North American Federations’ year 2000 Stallion Performance Test in California. In the year 2001, Reno took part in the American Young Jumper Championship series. Winning several qualifiers through the year, Reno finished 4th at the finals, just one-rail shy of the victory. Riverman’s look-alike son Royal Appearance (1995: Riverman-Lord Calando-Othello) placed 4th in the year 2000 Stallion Performance Testing in California then went on to top honors in 2001. Royal Appearance’s first full-show season took place after a short breeding stint in the spring of 2001. He had a lot of “catching up” to do as his peer group had at least two full seasons of competition under their belts. Royal Appearance took on the challenge of participating in the American Young Jumper Championships in the competitive 6-year old division. He placed 2nd at the finals, outperforming our every expectation! Royal Appearance is also proving himself as a sire, with Champion foals consistently produced across his three foal crops to date. Riverman has also produced notably successful mares:
LA Baltic River Rose, Swdish warmblood filly out of Rose of Sweden by Burgraf: 2000 Young Horse Champion of Devon, Bred by Dr. Gail Carmona-Hoff of Los Alamos Dressage Center in New Jersey
Rivita, States Premium Holsteiner mare out of Flora by Carolus: 1999 Reserve Grand Champion of Devon. Rivitia earned 9’s and 10’s at her Mare Performance Testing in Germany for her rideabilty , movement, and jumping capability.
Ria d’Or, Premium Oldenburg filly out of Cor Dia by Cor Noir: 2001 Young Horse Champion of Devon and East Coast USDF Breeders Championships Young Horse Champion
Riverman is destined to leave a strong mark on the sport and breeding industry across North America, perhaps across the world. Riverman has produced more premium foals than any other stallion in North America. His North American foal crops annually deliver high percentages of premium offspring across the registries. His offspring sweep breed show championship titles across the country each year. In the year 2000, Riverman had the #3 foal for the NA/WPN, the #1 foal for ISR/OldenburgNA, and the Dressage at Devon Young Horse Champion. His influence extends across the Holsteiner, Oldenburg, Swedish, Dutch, and even Westphalian registries.
eggbutt
I had seen that information on Hilltop’s website.
Still doesn’t give me the names of any GP jumpers and any upper level eventers. I did find some preliminary horses but no intermediate or advanced horses.
I do apreciate the IJF and the Young Jumper Series but that is a long way from a GP jumper.
Not bashing anybody, just would like information.
I have not ever ever bashed Hilltop. This board is notorious for putting words in people’s mouths. Don’t attribute that to me. I have never even implied it.
“I guess my foolish ass with a Riverman mare who has sparked interest by some pretty well known pros”
Yep, you said it , pros. Why is it hard for you to hear that? Personally I don’t have a problem with a “pros ride”. My GP jumper mare (now retired to broodmare) was considered a pros ride too. I love her and have 2 of her foals that I have high hopes for to also go into the GP ring. But, as I’ve said, I breed for the top levels. But I do have a problem with a bloodline that doesn’t have anything at the top levels and is also considered a pros ride. Maybe yours will be the first…out of, lets see… how many foals did you guys say he has sired? I am sure you can see the crutch of the problem here!
The stats from Hilltop’s site talk mostly about foals - foal inspection, breed shows, etc. That isn’t performance!
I have had an opportunity to read these threads, and I dont usually reply, but this one peaked my interest.
I have yet to hear someone mention stems or mare lines of this particular stallion. From my travels in Germany, I have not met one German breeder of Holsteiners, that did not have books upon books of stem lines of Holsteiners. They are the map and guideline, the “true core” of Holsteiner breeding, that has produced the fabulous Holsteiner as we know it today.
Most of you are breeding “hybrids” or a cross outside of Holsteiner blood and I yet to hear someone say that they had considered the genetics of the stallion they were breeding too. I heard A LOT of “phenotype” descriptions of why this stallion was chosen, plus how the managers of this stallion made the mare owners descision easier to choose a stallion, and A LOT of “my horse is good, my horse wasnt good” but no one said anything about genetically (SP?) assessing the bloodstock of the parentage.
TB breeders in the US have been assessing bloodstock for years. The education is here for people if they want to learn to breed better horses, thats why we admire the Germans and their horses so much. Because its a science to them.
On a final note. A lot of you gave a couple of trainers a lot of flack, because you didnt like what they had to say. Sure, maybe they could of said it differently, but they are on to something, the rest of you havent seen.
There would be no “Big Name Farm” in Europe. There are many private breeders who stand a handful of stallions, and protect their Stamm line, and pass it on to their children, no differently then we would pass on a family heirloom. German breeders love their horses, and love the predictability of the Holsteiner horse. Also, they would never select a stallion, or even pursue a stallion because of where he was standing. That has nothing to do with the potential of your foal. Many young stallions with excellent bloodlines get overlooked in the US because they are not at a Big Name Farm. But ask the Germans, they know where to find them.
The next time some of you go to breed to this stallion, you should be saying, "My mares bloodline is “this, this and this” and should ask the Manager of this stallion, (because there are Sooooo Many foals on the ground by him) if a mare of similar breeding and type has bred to him and what was the outcome. Do you like that outcome? Is that cross going to give you the desired horse your are trying to breed? If not, then select another stallion. And if you absolutely love the stallion, then breed to him. But remember, your love of this stallion has NOTHING to do with accurate and educated breeding. Those are opinions, just like the one’s provided by the Stallions manager (in earlier posts). Opinions are not going to produce a great horse out of the union of your mare and this stallion. They just make you feel good about the decision you have made.
On another note, I am always a little concerned about a private breeder who is creating the “rules or guidelines” for an organization like the USDF to publish on the assesment of young stock. I had a chance to recently read an article like this, and passed it along to some of my German breeders while in Europe. They commented that the article must of been written by a “business man” concerned about his “business” of breeding horses. HMMM:lol:
Did I say that?
I do not understand why people heere want to interpret and second guess what I said. I never said that people with Riverman offspring were fools. If you like him, fine, but it is as much of an insult to someone’s intelligence to say, based on chit-chat, rumors and vey limited personal experience what a great stallion he is. Brag about your Riverman offspring, but I bet your mare, your persistence and hard work contributed to the success a whole lot more than the stallion. Just ask any of the German judges (e.g. Joachim Tietz) who have seen plenty of Riverman offspring in Germany and here - he will tell you his opinion - you don’t have to take my word for it. I am not speaking of individual horses, but what a stallion tends to produce. Also, even Riverman defenders, owners of Riverman offspring who actually like their horses, tend to say that they were difficult as young horses and spent a lot of time (and or money) to get them where they are. Can you imagine spending all that time and money on horses who actually are not difficult from the start? Try to work with 5-6 of the difficult ones (spend your money on 5 or 6, not just one, to try to get them going) and you’ll get really sick of them and you’ll appreciate the easy ones. Same goes for Hilltop. I do not have any vendetta against them (I have never done any business with them except having to fix a couple of horses who went through their famous young horse trainig program) but there’s an obvious thing: with all the resources, all the expertise and tens millions of dollars spent on breeding stock and training, they have no international success whatsoever. They are primarily a marketing operation. It’s not personal vendetta, it’s a fact. If it works for them, that’s fine. But let’s be clear about facts and fairy tales… I guess, lots of people do not want facts. I think this site is here to exchange ideas. I just expressed my ideas, never called anyone a fool and I just stated some observations based on a whole lot more experience than most people on this message board.
I could have been the nice guy to say all positive things and praising all offspring of all stallions I have ever worked with. Everybody would have liked me then except maybe for Tri and PineTreeFarm (at least you guys are thinking rationally).
Mr. and or Mrs. German Performance Horse:
You make a lot of assumptions about what American breeders think and why we make the breeding decisions we make. How about you give us a little credit here? We can read through hyperbole… and we can easily see self interest. It is as transparent to us as it is to you. We just do not spout off about it on an internet forum. We discuss it privately. But make no mistake, no country has an exclusive lock on advertising jargon and schmaltz. To suggest otherwise is elitist, naïve and silly.
[QUOTE=szipi;2031288]
I do not understand why people heere want to interpret and second guess what I said. I never said that people with Riverman offspring were fools. [/QUOTE]
Here is what you said:
[QUOTE=szipi;2029594]
Only in America can you find 250 fools to breed to him…[/QUOTE]
Maybe it slipped out before you realized you wrote it.
[QUOTE=PineTreeFarm;2031009]
eggbutt
I had seen that information on Hilltop’s website.
Still doesn’t give me the names of any GP jumpers and any upper level eventers. I did find some preliminary horses but no intermediate or advanced horses.
I do apreciate the IJF and the Young Jumper Series but that is a long way from a GP jumper.
Not bashing anybody, just would like information.[/QUOTE]
Pine tree. I do know that there is one Riverman at least competing at intermediate… but I don’t remember his name. I emailed melissa… Hopefully she’ll give me some names. I’m not sure where you are looking but I have found that USEF is very very very inaccurate when it comes to listing offspring by stallion.
As far as imposing a standard of producing a notable number of upper level horses, how many Americans compete at the highest level of dressage, or jumping, or eventing? You can go to the USDF web site and look at the numbers who competed. The number of participants quickly narrow down after 2nd or 3rd level, given the number of riders who enjoy owning a horse. Not a plow horse or a grade horse, but a handsome sport horse they love and are proud of. There are even people who love to ride and develop their horse to its capability, but don’t compete. They don’t appears in any statistics.
Why do a handful of people think they have a right to impugn the lower and middle levels of any sports as if they are scum?
Why would one stallion owner publicly criticize another breeding farm? This is so unprofessional. Mr. Lotus, you are being told repeatedly by mare owners that the behavior you exhibit in this forum is offensive.
Tri, why you are participating in this thread is a puzzle. I don’t think you have any firsthand knowledge of the stallion or any offspring, but you are compelled to be critical. That is your persona, slam American breeders at every opportunity.
Pablo has sired many offsrping at the highest levels of sport, but he stood in Europe. Had he come here as a young stallion, the numbers would be quite different.
The Olympic equestrian disciplines in the USA are not a major sport. This is not news.
I watched the Grand Prix rides at the evening gala of the California Dressage Society, and half the seats were empty.
No Assumptions made
Sorry Cartier
I just read your posts…all of them. I do give the Americans a lot of credit. Farms like Hill Top are providing breeders an excellent opportunity to breed to some great stallions. But Im not seeing the educational background as I do in Germany when I attend inspections, read these posts and look at why breeders in the US choose stallions.
Its a fact that many US breeders choose for popularity and phenotype expressions of traits. No one ever looks genetically at what a stallion is producing out of a certain type of mare. You never said anything about that in your posts. You never looked at the Stem line of Alexis and wondered what that was going to bring to the table because when you breed to a Holsteiner, thats the first thing you should be looking at. You would also know that the Stem of Alexis has nothing to do with the Sires on that side, which is what the marketing of this stallion would have you believe. You would also know what her sisters have been producing out of certain Sire lines, what her mothers were producing, if any of her Stem relatives have also produced other approved Verband Stallion, and what those crosses have produced out of GOV, ISR and TB mares, as some of the relatives have been imported to the US. Do you know what the BV is for this horse?? You should. Thats what the Germans want to know when they breed. But you didnt say that.
Of course, marketing jargon is everywhere. Im not saying making money in horses is bad, but assuming that the biggest money makers are also going to provide you the mare owner with the best cross is foolish. That is as transparent to me as it should be to you. But insisting I have taken and elitist tone, because I have done my homework on Holsteiner breeding, is a bit far fetched. I suggest you pick up the AHHA Stallion roster, and find the section in the back on nicking patterns. That would be a good place to start. From there, you can find crosses in pedigrees of stallions, repeats of foundation blood and an excellent starting ground to educate yourself on this stallions bloodlines and what they have produced genetically.
I wish you only the best success in your breeding endeavors, but dont come to “spout” off on someone who brought some “educated facts” to the public forum…you never know who you are talking too.
[QUOTE=Cartier;2031320]
and we can easily see self interest. QUOTE]
No kidding… Every single “what stallion should I breed my mare to” post szipi is shamelessly promoting Lotus T… I thought that we got rid of the “advertising” threads?
PineTreeFarm - Raibala is by Riverman and competed last year at HITS with Harold Chopping in the Grand Prix ring. She’s a young mare and did well. Reno is competing in the Grand Prixs. There are others in the jr/ao jumper rings that are young so am curious to see if they have the ability to move up or will remain where they are at.
Thank you all…
for your sharing your opinions, both positive and negative, about Riverman. One thing that I consider is that he has had such a preponderance of Premium foals…a higher than average percentage…and that makes me think that he is throwing his athleticism, conformation and movement. It seems that it is what WE as BREEDERS and TRAINERS and RIDERS bring to the table that makes the difference. From 46 years of making show horses I have learned that the very best were “difficult” and I learned that much of the difficulty was due to their extreme athleticism and sensitivity…it took years to understand how that actually impedes progress in all but the most experienced hands.
