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Any one have RIVERMAN offspring

Sport Horse Breeding
#81

[QUOTE=German Performance Horses;2031407]
Sorry Cartier

I just read your posts…all of them. I do give the Americans a lot of credit. Farms like Hill Top are providing breeders an excellent opportunity to breed to some great stallions. But Im not seeing the educational background as I do in Germany when I attend inspections, read these posts and look at why breeders in the US choose stallions.

Its a fact that many US breeders choose for popularity and phenotype expressions of traits. No one ever looks genetically at what a stallion is producing out of a certain type of mare. You never said anything about that in your posts. You never looked at the Stem line of Alexis and wondered what that was going to bring to the table because when you breed to a Holsteiner, thats the first thing you should be looking at. You would also know that the Stem of Alexis has nothing to do with the Sires on that side, which is what the marketing of this stallion would have you believe. You would also know what her sisters have been producing out of certain Sire lines, what her mothers were producing, if any of her Stem relatives have also produced other approved Verband Stallion, and what those crosses have produced out of GOV, ISR and TB mares, as some of the relatives have been imported to the US. Do you know what the BV is for this horse?? You should. Thats what the Germans want to know when they breed. But you didnt say that.

Of course, marketing jargon is everywhere. Im not saying making money in horses is bad, but assuming that the biggest money makers are also going to provide you the mare owner with the best cross is foolish. That is as transparent to me as it should be to you. But insisting I have taken and elitist tone, because I have done my homework on Holsteiner breeding, is a bit far fetched. I suggest you pick up the AHHA Stallion roster, and find the section in the back on nicking patterns. That would be a good place to start. From there, you can find crosses in pedigrees of stallions, repeats of foundation blood and an excellent starting ground to educate yourself on this stallions bloodlines and what they have produced genetically.

I wish you only the best success in your breeding endeavors, but dont come to “spout” off on someone who brought some “educated facts” to the public forum…you never know who you are talking too.[/QUOTE]

I agree, you never know who you’re talking to… but we aren’t talking, we’re writing each other back and forth … and we are limited by too many constraints here to make very sophisticated points. We don’t breed Holsteiners… and I don’t claim that we do. I object to some of the other inferences in your post… but frankly, this is so off topic we should discuss it privately.

#82

I realized that “Mr. Lotus” is fairly new to the forums and misjudged the opportunity to put down another stallion as an opportunity to promote his own. That’s not the way it works here. Mare owners are repelled by flagrant self-promotion.

#83

Claudius -

Others will tell you this too, but don’t put too much weight on the premium foal thing unless you are breeding for a premium foal. It’s kind of like geniuses not doing well in school or not being able to spell - but just the opposite. Producing lots of premium foals (which he does), does not translate into lots of premium adult horses. I agree with others that he is a broodmare sire. I have seen some really nice mares (esp) out of Riverman daughters. Jill

#84

re: Oakstable

I am not sure what your agenda is. There was a post asking about Riverman and the qualities of his offspring…and I answered it, not based on info from Hilltop’s website, but on having to work and live with 6 Riverman offspring for quite while and riding them/handling them at horse shows (do you, by any chance, have as much experience with Riverman offspring?). I would have NEVER allowed any of my 12-15 YO students (all very good riders) handle them, let alone ride them, when these horses were 3-4 year-olds. I happened to have bred/raised/trained a number of young horses of the same age by certain other stallions, out of questionable quality mares who are competing (after proper training, of course) at very high levels with professionals and kids/amateurs alike…without the difficulties and problems. So please, forgive me that I draw my conclusions based on those facts - and please, forgive me if I express my opinion on an open forum. I invite you to visit my farm, my operation and observe what’s going on here and draw your conclusions from first-hand experience rather than on internet chatrooms.

#85

your opinions are welcome, your snide remarks are not.

Also, again, to the german breeder… while pedigree means something, that is only part of the equation. you don’t ride a pedigree. If that was true, who the he$$ cares about looking at the stallion. The owner could just send you a copy of its pedigree and you would purchase a breeding sight unseen.

To those of you that are so high and mighty on the pedigree… I challenge you to spend your $2500 that way this year, pick a stallion on pedigree alone and don’t look at him or his movement until after you have bred…it’s not as easy as it seems, especially for those of us that aren’t swimming in a trust fund.

Again, genotype is only PART of the equation.

#86

f4leggin

My interpretation of the value of the Premium label is that it is saying, "YES, it’s all HERE!!! In spades. Now the rest is up to YOU,trainers,owners and riders. " And over the years I have realized that the MORE is THERE to work with, the more challenging the horse, the more he/she may be pronounced “difficult”…the bigger the possible reward if the puzzle is solved!!!

#87

I have found this post to be very interesting. I appreciate it more now that the sniping has calmed down a bit.

To the poster concerned about Scott Hassler representing the sport horse breeders on the USDF committee, if you’ve ever met Scott, you will know that he NEVER, EVER promotes his horses or Hilltop while working on committees or giving talks to young riders or at symposiums. Come to think of it, I’ve never heard Scott advertise Hilltop in any way whatsoever off the Hilltop property. Sure, his presence and demeanor and knowledge promote Hilltop to prospective breeders because he is a staff member, he is not a verbal walking commercial for the farm. And, I must correct you also about Hilltop questioning the pedigree of the mare…every time I’ve spoken with Hilltop about a stallion I am asked about the mare pedigree and we then discuss the various traits of each line and what my goals are. I have never felt any pressure whatsoever from any staff member to do anything.

I don’t want to hijack this thread into a defense of Hilltop, but I do resent the implications that many of us are not educated and have fallen into a marketing trap that Hilltop has promoted.

#88

well, I actually emailed Hilltop regarding Riverman offspring…

Straight from the “horses mouth” so to speak:

"Hi Erika,

It’s good to hear from you again and I’m glad that Cal is doing well. I also appreciate that you’ve asked us these questions.

Riverman has several offspring of note competing at the upper levels of sport. Jane Sleeper has two Riverman offspring, one of which we know is going Intermediate.

River Court (photos attached of him going Prelim and at Copper Meadows) has done CCI*. The next below is from his owner/breeder Linda Renne:

" River Court 's next event will be the Nov 3-6, 2005 Galway Downs National Championship (CCI**/CCI*).This will be River Court 's second International-level event. He will be competing in the CCI* Modified division. I think I wrote to Hilltop that he competed in his first CIC* in early April 2005 and placed sixth in a field of over 30 horses (he was the youngest and came through like a champion). In June he competed at Copper Meadows in the Open Preliminary. River Court’s rider, Matthias Schwarz, has been in Germany since the end of June and should return by the end of September to resume his partnership with River Court . In the meantime I’ve been keeping the boy happy and slowly increasing his level of conditioning with lots of hill work and gallop work. I think River Court is having a blast. He is a happy boy and is a joy to work with and have as part of my family. I think that one of the keys to River Court 's success is keeping him intellectually challenged and keeping his routine reliable."

Riverman is the 57th leading Eventing sire (out of more than 300 sires) for 2004 in the USEF standings

Here’s some clips from our website:

" Roanoke " (Riverman – Etiole/Bonjour), a 1998 gelding bred by Didi Callahan, competed in his first Prelim. course at the Maui Jim in Wayne , IL under rider/owner, Morgan Grissum, earning a 34.4 in his dressage portion! Morgan and “Ro” will continue at the Prelim. level and hopefully do a one-star

“Money Train”, an eleven year old Riverman gelding, did his first Prix St. Georges test at the Memphis in Springtime II Show under rider Bill Hoos, earning a 64.5% for 2nd Place ! (Judge: Melissa Coburn Ash) Money Train is owned by Michele Deal. (Posted 9/1/06)

River Run Roscoe was the 2006 USDF All Breed Awards Holsteiner Reserve Champion at PSG with a 65.5% average and Cody, one of Larry Poulin’s champion team driving pair of Rivermans, showed 4th Level at the NEDA Fall Championships and will be showing PSG-I1 this winter in Florida .

Below I’ll attach what I’ve just written up for Riverman’s website, which will be posted soon:

2006 IJF Championship Results –

“Rivana” Champion Five Year Old Mare - Double Clean at the Bay Area Summer Festival, Woodside Circuit Opener, and Showpark Summer Classic out of the Holsteiner mare Miriah (Caesar – Calme); Bred by Stacie Coder, Owned/Ridden by Patty Vasey.

“Too Much” (aka Rubyiat) 3rd Place Five Year Old Mare - Double Clean at the Kentucky Spring Classic, 3rd Place Five Year Old at the Gulf Coast Premiere I out of the Thoroughbred mare Bara Time (Barachois – Hasty Jib); Bred by Diana Jones, Owned/Ridden by Lee Hatcher."

I have enclosed some photos:

http://www.freewebs.com/teamtangerine/River_Court_Prelim.jpg

http://www.freewebs.com/teamtangerine/Rincon_0406_Copper_Meadows001.jpg

#89

This is a very good point, and certainly one the american breeding program for sport horses falls short in. But to be fair, the German system falls just almost as short when compared to the TB industry (US and worldwide). We had a good thread on here lamenting the failure to effectively evaluate tail lines in WBs in general. JC style catalogue pedigree pages are a masterpiece of summarized information, of which about one parapgraph is dedicated to the sire (to paraphrase a great campaign mantra, “It’s about the mare, stupid!”). All the real information comes from the tail line.

Of course racing is a much more quantitative sport that lends itself to this analysis, but would that WB registries try to find a way to define at least the avg score of the foals produced by the tail line and possibly even the performance records of the tail line offspring. It’s a pity american breeders do not, but they at least have the (poor) excuse of a lack of data and a shorter history. The same cannot be said about the European registries, with a much more extensive data bank abnd decades of collection.

#90

Perfect timing for an outstanding article on the subject of American breeding in this week’s Stallion Issue of CHRON. Scott Hassler himself writes the article on page 61 I believe.

#91

[QUOTE=Oakstable;2031527]
I realized that “Mr. Lotus” is fairly new to the forums and misjudged the opportunity to put down another stallion as an opportunity to promote his own. That’s not the way it works here. Mare owners are repelled by flagrant self-promotion.[/QUOTE]

This is so true… this is part of an email I received regarding breeding to his stallion. Information for this particular stallion was not requested, this was a purely owner-inspired message:

"[Lotus T] was named the best young event sire in North America by the USEA magazine (April, 2004). Lotus T is a very tall, modern type Holsteiner stallion, with 70% TB blood in him. He is an incredible jumper AND has Olympic caliber, super elastic dressage gaits. For instance, Coconut Grove is a great jumper, but can’t move. All the Welton horses, althopugh they are brave and fast on cross-country, they do not have the movement required by the modern eventing environment (on top of that they aren’t particularly careful jumpers).

Huh, not sure I am too keen on breeding to a stallion, no matter how good he is, when the first thing out of the owners mouth is how bad all the other very nice horses are.

#92

Ever notice that the COTH posters, with a few exceptions, act like a mare band? Step out of line here, especially in having to do with fairness, and the mare band takes action.

#93

Riverman offspring?

I’m donning my flame suit as I write this, but I’ve known about a dozen Rivermen get of various ages. Now, mind you, I like a horse with a lot of 'tude, but these youngsters have been rather difficult individuals. I’ll admit, however, that they are often highly athletic, often very lovely, and talented; just not the most accommodating of equine partners. If I were breeding to him, I would use a most kind and personable mare proven to be pretty strong in throwing her temperament.

#94

Lily5453:
Thanks for posting that information. But remember that the question was about horses competing at the upper
levels of GP jumping and eventing at present. I do appreciate the IJF but it’s a long ways from a GP class.

River Court has a Verifiable record at Preliminary in 2005 and 2006. There are no points at intermediate level in either year.
He certainly may have competed at Intermediate but earned no points.
It is certainly true that sometimes the offspring are not correctly tied to the sire on USEF’s database. But in this case
River Court is correctly linked to Riverman.
Riverman is ranked 25 out of 215 by USEF in 2006, mostly on River Court’s record. The horses linked to Riverman had points at
the preliminary level.
In 2005 Riverman is ranked 106 out of 245, entirely on River Court’s record.

PonyGirl:
‘Raibala is by Riverman and competed last year at HITS with Harold Chopping in the Grand Prix ring’
I found GP records for 2005 for Rabaila but nothing for 2006. The name is spelled differently than you gave so I had
trouble finding this horse.
‘Reno is competing in the Grand Prixs’
I found a record for Reno in 2005 which included 3 placings in $25,000 GP in 2005. No GP record for 2006.
Both Reno and Rabaila are tied to Riverman’s sire record.

2005 ranked 78 out of 746 (almost entirely on Rabaila’s record)
RABAILA 3700: $25,000 PLUS (GR. PRIX) 22000
3800: MISC JUMPER 1325
RENO 3700: $25,000 PLUS (GR. PRIX) 5000
3800: MISC JUMPER 2460
RHETT BUTLER 3502: ADULT AMATEUR JUMPER 8
RIVER’S EDGE 3302: AMATEUR OWNER JUMPER 100
3502: ADULT AMATEUR JUMPER 40

2006 ranked 368 out of 660
AFTON 3302: AMATEUR OWNER JUMPER 286
3800: MISC JUMPER 22
9403: 7/8-YEAR-OLD YOUNG JUMPER 5
BLUE WATER RISING STAR 3502: ADULT AMATEUR JUMPER 2
RENO 3800: MISC JUMPER 150
RHETT BUTLER 3502: ADULT AMATEUR JUMPER 15
RIVER’S EDGE 3502: ADULT AMATEUR JUMPER 25
So nothing competing at present in GP jumpers or advanced eventing.

#95

as far as I know, it was “Riverman offspring competiting at the upper levels” Of ANYTHING, including dressage.

It wasn’t river court going intermediate, it was one of Jane Sleepers horses. I think that a lot of people forget that eventers don’t care as much about pedigree when buying or competing a horse so do not fill that section out, therefore it wouldn’t be tied to Riverman. Just telling you what melissa said.

Also, the question wasn’t competing at “present” it was “competing” in general at the higher levels.

#96

I can think of no other stallion that gets this kind of scrutiny. Does this thread show we all have too much time on our hands?

#97

[QUOTE=Oakstable;2032824]
I can think of no other stallion that gets this kind of scrutiny. Does this thread show we all have too much time on our hands?[/QUOTE]

too much!!!

or… .there are some things that get under our skin.

also if you look at the photo of River Court, that is an advanced course… (take a look at the flag). Unless the color is screwy…which is might be.

#98

Its been raining.

I have for quite some time questioned the merits of Riverman as a sire. There have been tooooooo many foals out of toooooo many nice mares to have such low stats. What other stallion has had so much and given so little back?

I can see the broodmare sire label sticking perhaps - time will tell. Maybe, just speculation, but, maybe it is getting a generation removed from the temperment issues and still keeping the type and abilities that is shining through on that front.

As far as the great ones being “difficult”. There is difficult and there is difficult. My jumper mare, as I’ve said, is considered a pros ride. But it is the RIDE. On the ground, she is very well behaved - a pro so to speak. She knows exactly what YOU are supposed to do but she doesn’t do anything stupid - not in learning how to tie as a youngster, not in anything she has ever done. She has NEVER thrown herself down in a fit as some Riverman’s have been described here. Her mother (I also own) was considered a pros ride as well (and was a pros ride for years). Again, very well behaved on the ground but quick as a wink as a ride and if you didn’t watch yourself, you (and many a pro rider as well) will find themselves sitting on air if not careful.

Being stubborn and opinionated are often the hallmarks of great performance horses. That isn’t what I’ve heard described here from those that have trained Rivermans.

Again, I go back to the warmblood approval ‘thing’. Isn’t the whole warmblood system based on an intense study of bloodlines, culling those who don’t produce, TRACKING the resulting offspring, testing, ranking and announcing results of performance of the horses, etc etc? Then why do american breeders get so defensive when those things are discussed? This is the kind of information that is so badly needed in this country! This is why many many people started breeding warmbloods here in the first place - to have the intense information about the breeding animals. Then when we get some of it, the Riverman nazis come out in force and say oh, it all doesn’t matter anyways, I am happy with my ONE foal so everyone else shut up. News Flash!! It isn’t about your one foal. The warmblood system is set up to track the overall picture, in this case, a particular stallion’s breeding record of producing competive horses for sport. As a statistic, it is not good. That is a fact. Those facts are why you pay your membership fees and all the other $$$$$$$$$.

#99

Tri

You make many excellent points. There is no question, it is difficult to discuss breeding stock objectively… for a whole hosts of reasons, ranging from sheer naiveté about the facts - to feelings of defensiveness because you are essentially commenting on someone’s precious baby or monetary investment. And we’re human, sometimes we attack first and sit back and reflect on the merit of what is being said later.

#100

Great thread in my opinion…

Tongue in cheek…shall we see if Hilltop will geld Riverman? – no flaming please…really just me being an arrogant jerk.

Seriously though, someone made a very interesting comment about Riverman always being under scrutiny. Interesting…I’d never thought about that but it seems to be true. Could it be because he truly does have so many offspring that he is discussed to much? We certainly don’t discuss Contucci’s merits like we discuss Riverman for sure, but then again, isn’t Contucci one of the top producing dressage sires in the US with many showing upper levels? Dunno…maybe I’m stirring a pot here :yes:

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