Any one have RIVERMAN offspring

[DownYonder]

I know about a half-dozen people in my area with Riverman offspring. For the most part, they are good looking, typey, athletic horses. Some of them have jumper or dressage type movement, some of them are flatter in their gaits. Most of them seem to be pretty decent at the jump but I know of one gelding who is almost scary with his front legs.

Regarding temperament: one experienced warmblood breeder friend who bred to him three years in a row quit using him because – in her words – “everything is an issue with his foals” (her foals were out of several different mares, too). Another experienced warmblood breeder in our area used him several years in a row on her TB mares, and has not had much success selling the foals, including a 6 y/o gelding who has bucked off a few people (broke one person’s arm pretty badly). Another friend had to take back a yearling filly because the new owner couldn’t deal with the high-spirited temperament. Another friend has a 4 y/o mare by him that she has been trying to sell since she was a weanling. She finally gave up and bred the mare to an Irish Draught stallion to “take the edge” off her temperament. Another breeder I know told me that one of the young horse trainers in her area said he won’t take Riverman youngsters anymore for starting because he has been hurt too many times by them. Another experienced breeder and trainer has a homebred Riverman mare that she just uses for breeding – says she has no desire to ride her and it “isn’t worth the time and trouble” to try to get her sold.

On the other hand, I know two people with Riverman youngsters that they just LOVE. One is 4 y/o gelding doing amateur hunters, and the other one is a 3 y/o mare that the owner hopes to event.

My basic sense is that the Riverman offspring aren’t for everyone. While there are certainly some easy ones out there, most of them seem to be more of a pro type of horse – intelligent, athletic, sensitive, somewhat strong willed, with not much tolerance for being bullied or mishandled, and generally not for the timid or inexperienced. I think his strongest contribution will be his broodmare daughters – I’ve seen some stunning foals out of Riverman mares.

[Cartier]

[QUOTE=DownYonder;2033101]
I think his strongest contribution will be his broodmare daughters – I’ve seen some stunning foals out of Riverman mares.[/QUOTE]

Tend to agree with you here, and have said so many times.

As for Contucci as a dressage sire… his kids are still young, but there are many that seem to be solidly on the right track for upper level work. I think trainers love Contucci kids, in part for their ridability. Some of this gets back to what American trainers are skilled at dealing with. Possilby, the majority of our trainers are more in tune with what Contucci produces.

[eggbutt]

@Cartier;2033124

Tend to agree with you here, and have said so many times.

As for Contucci as a dressage sire… his kids are still young, but there are many that seem to be solidly on the right track for upper level work. I think trainers love Contucci kids, in part for their ridability. Some of this gets back to what American trainers are skilled at dealing with. Possilby, the majority of our trainers are more in tune with what Contucci produces.

I total agree with both posts!

[tri]

Anyone know about how many mares Contucci has bred or per year?

Also, in looking over his info on Hilltop’s website, there are results from horses going back to 1999 which means his foals are 7 yrs old - please correct me if I’m reading his stats wrong (it is a long list). They mention very briefly some offspring from europe competing but most of everything is just breed show results, ho hum.

If Contucci gets a lot of mares, it would be interesting to compare stats against Riverman.

I must say it is neat to see a discussion of different North American stallions held up against each other with analysis of offspring competing in the North American markets instead of always what europe is doing.

Does anyone know of any other North American stallion getting a comparable number of breedings? Popeye K is but his offspring are too young to compare.

[Cartier]

[QUOTE=tri;2033850]

Does anyone know of any other North American stallion getting a comparable number of breedings? Popeye K is but his offspring are too young to compare.[/QUOTE]

Sure, from the Old NA Breeders Quide 2006:

Art Deco - from 1992-2005 has a total of 296 foals
Ideal - from 1990-2005 has a total of 295 foals
Frohwind - from 1988-2005 has a total of 301 foals
Hall of Fame - from 1993 -2005 has a total of 134 foals
Furst Gotthard - from 1987 - 2005 has a total of 142 foals

Riverman - from 1997 - 2005 has a total of 177 foals

Contucci - from 1999-2005 has 115 foals, but he must also have a good number of AHA foals

Note: most all of these stallions would have about an equal number of GOV foals, but I think that only Contucci would also have a good numer of AHA foals (not sure about Frohwind and Furst Gothard)

[eggbutt]

And, don’t forget Royal Prince…we have a 2005 filly by him that is stunning. All of his offspring are way too young to have done much other than breed show as yet since his first foal crop was 2005.

Also:
Waldorf
Rolling Stone
West Coast – here in the South, there are many West Coast offspring doing well in dressage.

[showjumpers66]

It is very important to remember that a HUGE number of trainers/riders do not record the pedigree information of the horses that they are showing. I know several Lemgos that are competing at upper levels locally, but he will never get credit for these horses as their pedigree information is not recorded with USEF. Even if we, as breeders, get lifetime numbers for all of our foals, I feel very confident that the lifetime numbers will not follow the majority of the horses throughout their show careers. :no:

[Cartier]

I think that it’s fair to say that - across the board - relatively few American bred horses make it to the upper levels. I don’t think you can blame the stallion/sire for this. There are other factors, one is that it is very expensive to get a horse to the upper levels and often people with the resources to do so start with an imported horse. Also, if we’re going to look at percentages, how many trainers can actually take a horse (of any breeding) from day one through to the FEI level.

Clearly Riverman is not at the head of the line of stallions without tons of upper level offspring. But, beyond that, I think we are looking at statistics out of context and getting a skewed sense of what they really mean. There are so many other factors to consider to account for why American-bred offspring aren’t yet at the upper levels. As people have noted, for many breeders / owners it isn’t even a goal.

I was thinking about this and noticed that the Old NA 2006 Breeders Guide says that Contango had a total of 6 foals presented to that registry from 2000 through 2004. I’m sure he has many NAWPN and AHHA foals. I wouldn’t be surprised if Contango has the highest ratio of offspring competing at the upper levels of any stallion standing in the USA.

[Oakstable]

Many stallions are in more than one registry and many are in 3-5. Gasp.

There is no way for us to know which stallions are producing upper level horses because there is no universal tracking. Plenty of threads on that subject in this forum.

I sold two Dutch jumpers by Argus. The mare was campaigned extensively by her amateur owner, and sometimes by a big name trainer, here in SoCal. The gelding went on to Grand Prix and showed at Spruce Meadows. I only know this as I stayed in touch with one owner and she kept track of the full brother.

The owners did not transfer ownership with the KWPN NA into their own names.

I’m going to start putting my babies into the USEF lifetime data bank. What does it cost?

[PineTreeFarm]

@Oakstable;2034087

I’m going to start putting my babies into the USEF lifetime data bank. What does it cost?

$35 if you do lifetime recording by 12/31 in the year they are born.
http://www.usef.org/documents/membership/2006horserecording.pdf

[showjumpers66]

Oakstable, it doesn’t matter if you lifetime register your babies with USEF. The paperwork tends to not follow the horse and the new trainer applies for a new lifetime number with a new name and no pedigree information.

[tri]

IMHO, I think you guys need to rethink what you are posting. You are basically saying that if a top american rider imports a warmblood, the pedigree is documented. If a top american rider buys an american bred horse, the pedigree is not documented.

So, #1. That is what you are saying and american breeders need to figure out why - is it that american bred horses’ papers are considered not as important or valuable? Or what?

or, #2. That is not what you are saying and you are going to revise it to some other excuse as to why american riders (or any riders) are not riding american bred warmbloods.

Because, the American riders tend to know the immediate bloodlines of those imports they are riding at the top levels. And the announcers announce what registry each horse is as they go in the ring at most of the big events. I was watching an event at Spruce Meadows a little while back and there was even an British Warmblood announced. If it is as you say, then we wouldn’t know that our American top riders are riding imports would we? But we do. So with or without the absolute failing of our tracking system which is a failure, we do know what horses the top riders are riding and they ain’t ours.

[MagicRoseFarm]

[QUOTE=Cartier;2034057]
I think that it’s fair to say that - across the board - relatively few American bred horses make it to the upper levels. I don’t think you can blame the stallion/sire for this. [/QUOTE]
I know this is totally off track, But the the US has been discouraged ( EVEN PUNISHED) for producing FEI level talent in the past. Hence encouraging looking overseas for those horses. One perfect example I can think of is the stallion Abundance. He constantly outproduced himself , with a TB marebase ONLY…

[showjumpers66]

You are taking this way out of context, as usual, tri. The majority of horses in the US do NOT show at the Grand Prix level where the bloodlines are announced and bios are read. This has become a trend and most riders at the international level have been encouraged to get the information for the bios. The majority are shown by amateurs in either the hunters or lower levels. The pedigree information is not being recorded correctly for both domestically bred and imported horses.

[ShowjumpersUSA]

I watched the World Cup qualifier from Wellington this evening. I was especially interested in listening to the announcer. None of the horses pedigrees were mentioned beyond “Holsteiner”, “Dutch Warmblood”, “Dutch bred”, “Westphalian”, etc.

I was miffed to say the least. I am an American breeder standing a stallion right here in the US who has more than one offspring competing at the top of the sport. One of his progeny was in the World Cup qualifier tonight. Not many people are aware of that fact for a variety of reasons. The cost of advertising and return on investment not the least of them.

The riders or their agents don’t put the information on the bio. The announcer doesn’t have much to say if the information isn’t there.

Our riders don’t really have an interest in how their horse is bred as long as it can get around the jumps clean and fast.

We are the new kid on the block as far as sport horse breeding is concerned. We are not taken seriously on the international scene. When our American riders begin to take pride in our American bred horses, they will take the few extra minutes to put the information on the bio. When that happens the rest of the horse world will sit up and take notice.

[Cartier]

[QUOTE=MagicRoseFarm;2034633]
I know this is totally off track, But the the US has been discouraged ( EVEN PUNISHED) for producing FEI level talent in the past. Hence encouraging looking overseas for those horses. One perfect example I can think of is the stallion Abundance. He constantly outproduced himself , with a TB marebase ONLY…[/QUOTE]
Excellent points Wendy.

One thing I see again and again on these forums (and in the Horsey Press) is the significant disconnect between the “press” version of what the warmblood breeding industry is all about - and stark cold reality. One reason for this disconnect is that “reality” is complex, influenced by many things, some of which are obvious, and some of which are very subtle. The reality of the breeding business (and what it takes to be successful) can’t be accurately explained in a three-line post or the glossy magazine ad. How and why things happen is complicated (with a myriad of influences). I think everyone of us would post very differently if we were not so worried about the knee-jerk reaction of those who truly don’t have all the facts (or the experience) to see beneath the surface. It is not possible on these forums do say much more than a teensy bit of what we know. Most times, it’s not possible to say much more than, “Gee, your foal is cute.”

So in a way, because of all the limitations on what we post, we are perpetuating myths and illusions about what goes on… and about which direction we should look as examples to try to emulate. At times we are creating little media monsters (i.e. ego driven facades). I don’t doubt that it’s always been this way - across the board - in every sort of human endeavor. I guess that’s why I am always thrilled when “The Little Guy” makes it to the top. The struggle for some (with quality) is overwhelming, in part because of the staggering costs and in part because of personal agendas and self-interest barring the way.

[risingstarfarm]

Just wanted to mention that there were at least two Contuccis (maybe three, but that is just off the top of my head) competing at the Markel Young Horse Dressage Championship. Both Calimar (4) and Carnegie (6) finished in the top ten of their respective age groups.

[copper_bay_farm]

[QUOTE=risingstarfarm;2035044]
Just wanted to mention that there were at least two Contuccis (maybe three, but that is just off the top of my head) competing at the Markel Young Horse Dressage Championship. Both Calimar (4) and Carnegie (6) finished in the top ten of their respective age groups.[/QUOTE]

BW-Callista (Contucci-Ariane/A Jungle Prince) also won the 4yo division.

[risingstarfarm]

thanks - I guess when I forget - I forget BIG!

Contucci offspring had a spectacular showing at the Young Horse Championships. What an impressive offspring record!

[LucyMay]

Riverman Offspring

I have a 3 y/o offspring by Riverman that has been absolutely wonderful to break. I rode her in a round pen for a week and then have done all of her ridden work after that point in large fields with no arena. She has been to all kinds of new places as a 3 y/o and just has great rideability and tempermeant. I’m hoping to show her in the young horse dressage classes next year. I know there have been some Rivermans with not ideal tempermeants discussed… I just wanted to share about my very positive experiences!