Hi LucyMay.
(I have a lovely mare whose name is Lucy Mae.)
Do you have any photos of your Riverman mare? What breed is her mother?
Her dam was an event mare, half Hanoverian (shogun lines) and half TB. Her dam’s name was Lucy. I do have some photos but unfortunately they aren’t on any websites.
What a great post , Cartier !! You are right … some of the most important issues in breeding are never discussed on these forums.
I’ll bring a few up and perhaps some breeders can comment on them:
Why is it that only stallions are really discussed on this board when people with experience in the business for the most part will agree that the mares are the foundation of any breeding operation ??
Why do breeders breed to dressage stallions that do not produce jumping stock thereby limiting their sales as the H/J market is 3/4ths of the sporthorse market ?
That ought to get me flamed for sure . Anyone wanting to start a whole new thread on either one of these questions please do so.
I started a thread on great mare lines earlier today–do you want to contribute to it? It is of alot of interest to me as we need to collect data on our mares here in the US. I’m sure that all conscientious breeders who follow this forum have something to add too.
I noticed your thread on the board ,Anne . It was one of 10 threads mentioning mares compared to 25 mentioning stallions . I will try to put some mare information on it tomorrow.
We love our broodmares !!!
[QUOTE=tri;2030491]
“Even another registry.”
Well, that just disqualified just about everyone on this board.[/QUOTE]
ROTFLMAO!!!
[QUOTE=Oakstable;2032697]
Ever notice that the COTH posters, with a few exceptions, act like a mare band? Step out of line here, especially in having to do with fairness, and the mare band takes action.[/QUOTE]
I would love to shout this from the roof tops. It’s frequently a mob mentality where emotions prevent to see the actual message the poster is trying to convey. But mare owners are in a league of their own, heck I own three!!!
I personally would never breed to Riverman based on my personal experience with him. Also based on what I was told by german judges who were there for his approvals before importation and at the auction he was sold. There are a lot of underlying stories they don’t want you to know about. I had the chance of being in the right place at the right time with the right people.
There is a reason why Hilltop bought him so cheaply. Don’t let them tell you otherwise.
[QUOTE=showjumpers66;2033965]
It is very important to remember that a HUGE number of trainers/riders do not record the pedigree information of the horses that they are showing. . . . .Even if we, as breeders, get lifetime numbers for all of our foals, I feel very confident that the lifetime numbers will not follow the majority of the horses throughout their show careers. :no:[/QUOTE]
Very true. Breeders can always track the foals through their names, like Touchtone’s Golden Boy or something or another but once the foal is sold, the name can always be changed. Didn’t that happen with Silver Lining? Doesn’t he have like 5 lifetime numbers?
[QUOTE=Allyn M;2036128]
What a great post , Cartier !! You are right … some of the most important issues in breeding are never discussed on these forums.
I’ll bring a few up and perhaps some breeders can comment on them:
Why is it that only stallions are really discussed on this board when people with experience in the business for the most part will agree that the mares are the foundation of any breeding operation ??
Why do breeders breed to dressage stallions that do not produce jumping stock thereby limiting their sales as the H/J market is 3/4ths of the sporthorse market ?
That ought to get me flamed for sure . Anyone wanting to start a whole new thread on either one of these questions please do so.[/QUOTE]
Excellent questions.
I think that one reason it is difficult to have productive conversations on this forum is that people are busy with the nuts-and-bolts daily work of owning horses. We may love the topic, it may be of great interest to us, but it may simply not be possible to follow the discussion and participate. There are only so many hours in a day.
And then, sometimes thread of one title evolves into very interesting productive conversations about a topic not related to the thread title, so some people miss the thread all together (believing that the tread title accurately reflects the topic being discussed).
With respect to previous comments made on this thread, I was wondering about the data we have and what it really means when we take numbers out of one context and try to fit them into another context to support a point of view.
[QUOTE=Allyn M;2036128]
What a great post , Cartier !! You are right … some of the most important issues in breeding are never discussed on these forums.
I’ll bring a few up and perhaps some breeders can comment on them:
Why is it that only stallions are really discussed on this board when people with experience in the business for the most part will agree that the mares are the foundation of any breeding operation ??
Why do breeders breed to dressage stallions that do not produce jumping stock thereby limiting their sales as the H/J market is 3/4ths of the sporthorse market ?
That ought to get me flamed for sure . Anyone wanting to start a whole new thread on either one of these questions please do so.[/QUOTE]
Regarding the first question, I will venture a guess that many of the posters are mareowners; they already have their mares, and are looking for a suitable match. I agree that mares are, if anything, at least as important as the stallion (50% genetically but if it’s not an ET then genetic mom’s raising skills will also impact the baby). But personally I already own the mares I want, and bought them after doing extensive research on mare lines. I would like to see more posts focusing on mare lines because it is something I give great weight to in evaluating stallions (as potential matches for my mares). And I am also interested in identifying which stallions are known for producing especially nice mares (b/c I intend to retain the best fillies to breed later). But I think that the conversation here often turns on the question “who should I breed X mare to,” and thus devolves into a discussion about stallions.
In addition, stallions are promoted and advertised much more heavily than mares. Mares do not have the kind of name recognition that stallions have. And in Europe, the top mares typically are put in breeding programs and do not compete, so they have less in-your-face name recognition. Identification of the top mares requires a bit more legwork, e.g., keeping track of the damlines of successful offspring. In the U.S., I think we have the opposite issue – the very best mares typically would be shown, but may or may not ever be retired for breeding duties. But perhaps more significantly, mares simply do not and cannot produce as many offspring as a stallion, so it may be a little more difficult to establish and identify strong mare lines. A top stallion in Europe may get several hundred mares a year. One of my fillies is out of a dam that likely produced the maximum possible – my filly was her 20th and last foal. That is an extraordinary amount of babies out of one dam (and yes her damline is well known). Sandro Hit’s dam was something of a freak; I don’t know how many offspring she had but I can think of least 3 off the top of my head that were world class. I may not be expressing this as well as I would like but if a stallion produces 25 world class horses, out of thousands of foals sired, it seems to me people will notice the 25 unbelievable ones and overlook the statistics (unless the also rans are not even nice). A mare can’t compete with those numbers. She only has a handful of babies with which to make her mark.
Regarding breeding to dressage stallions that do not produce jumping stock – I think this is a somewhat unfortunate trend, and one that does not make much sense if you really think about it. As for “why,” babies with flashy movement will sell faster than a baby with great jumping bloodlines but without the movement. Generally, H/J people want to see that the youngster can actually jump and are not so impressed by papers (I recognize there are exceptions to this). So the jumper breeder may very well have to wait 2 or 3 years to be able to demonstrate that Hoppy can in fact jump well (and take the risk the baby might not).
To be safe, in an ideal world, the breeder would pick the stallion that produces both great movement and great jumping ability. But how many stallions produce international caliber dressage horses and jumpers (nevermind that 99% of buyers don’t actually need a horse with FEI potential; 99.9% of them think they do)?
What I find most ironic, however, about the focus on breeding to dressage stallions to hopefully produce top dressage horses is the fact that if you study the bloodlines of many of the very top dressage horses (and indeed some important dressage sires such as Sandro Hit) you will find jumper lines. I had put together a list of horses competing up to the Olympic level as well as top sires and found a significant correlation between jumper bloodlines and dressage aptitude. To me this makes sense because I do think you need the same kind of power from behind to make a top jumper and top dressage horse. I believe I posted part of the list on COTH at some point, but if not and I come across it I will post it again.
Yankeelawyer,
Can you post your list in one of the threads recently opened?
I’d love to see it.
Showjumpers, as usual, you miss the point of the post. I am not talking about the “majority of horses”, I am talking about the majority of riders. Obviously the majority of horses aren’t going to make it to the top - it wouldn’t be the top then would it?
Our top RIDERS are riding imports almost exclusively and those top riders, #1. Know the bloodlines of the horse they ride, #2. Actively seek out certain proven bloodlines such as Darco, #3. Buy promising young stock to bring along.
All that totally belies what most breeders here on the board claim.
Allyn, you hit on a pet peeve of mine. I do talk about mares - I am on my third generation of mares with my line. I have also posted at length about the lack of scrutiny of the U.S. mare base and how breeders here only care about info coming out of europe which is totally based on the european mare base - and how the euro registries here promote that. It hasn’t gone over very well with many but tough! I’m going to keep saying it.
Yep! He has 5 lifetime numbers under three names AND has foals registered under all three names. It’s nuts!
[QUOTE=time fault;2036257]
Very true. Breeders can always track the foals through their names, like Touchtone’s Golden Boy or something or another but once the foal is sold, the name can always be changed. Didn’t that happen with Silver Lining? Doesn’t he have like 5 lifetime numbers?[/QUOTE]
Not always true, tri. To name two TOP RIDERS, Karen Cudmore and Margie Engle both ride many American bred horses.
Keep in mind that it takes a minimum 9 years from conception to get a horse to the upper levels. I can remember a time when there were NO warmbloods in any of the local barns. Our breeding programs are really very young and it is a waiting game for our stock to be old enough. Many breeders give up before they can really see success. It is expensive and heartbreaking. I have been breeding for 15 years, but we have spent the last 3 years building an outstanding hunter/jumper breeding program. We are 5 to 9 years away from seeing the fruits of our labors. That is just the way it is.
I do not think anyone is going to see significant progress in turning the high quality U.S. foals into upper level competitors until there is a lot more progress on the young horse trainer front. Most top GP riders are not also gifted with bringing along young horses; and those that might be don’t have the time or inclination to do so. I do believe that you can find U.S. bred youngsters that are comparable to the high quality ones in Europe. The difficulty is getting them from foal to 4 or 5 years training-wise.
Tri
[QUOTE=tri;2036808]
Our top RIDERS are riding imports almost exclusively and those top riders, #1. Know the bloodlines of the horse they ride, #2. Actively seek out certain proven bloodlines such as Darco, #3. Buy promising young stock to bring along.[/QUOTE]
Having had a little experience with professionals at the top of the sport of showjumping, I can tell you what I have seen and have been told:
#1 We have World Cup, Nation’s Cup and Olympic riders who have to look at their horse’s passport before they can tell you what the breeding of their horse is.
This attitude is OK with me. I call them “artists.” They are competitive riders; the only thing on their mind is winning. The riders I know leave the details to others.
#2 I asked an Olympic rider what the first thing is that she looks for in a horse besides the obvious talent. She told me it was their mind. The horse has to have the right mind to do this. She will look AT a horse with proven bloodlines but not FOR one just because of the sire.
One would hate to miss out on a great horse just because he is by a lesser known sire.
#3 It takes an Olympic rider about 2 minutes in the saddle to know if a young horse has the mind and the talent to warrant spending the time to bring him along, regardless of his breeding.
Most top riders are not breeders. If they become breeders they will breed the best to the best and hope for the best, just like the rest of us. Otherwise, they simply look for a horse they believe can get the job done.
These comments are only my personal observations from the perspective of a breeder.
Bonnie
A woman in my area bought a Dutch horse for her trainer to ride. She didn’t know his bloodlines and made no effort to remember them. When I’d run into her at shows, she would say oh, I know you are going to ask me about his pedigree, but I don’t remember.
He has competed very successfully at the Grand Prix level of dressage in CA.
She shows in amateur classes and is very successful on another horse. She doesn’t know the pedigree of that one either.
I think that is very typical of riders and competitors.
[QUOTE=YankeeLawyer;2037088]
Most top GP riders are not also gifted with bringing along young horses. . .[/QUOTE]
Then they have no business being in the horse business. It takes a stable full of messed up horses to make a trainer and if they can’t do it when they are an unknown then they do not diserve to be known.
I have to really agree with this. Where would the world be if Derek Peterson had not found Promised Land? His daddy jumped the fence!
[QUOTE=time fault;2037324]
Then they have no business being in the horse business. It takes a stable full of messed up horses to make a trainer and if they can’t do it when they are an unknown then they do not diserve to be known.[/QUOTE]
Really? That is interesting. In my opinion being a great trainer and being a great rider are quite often separate things, requiring different skills and talents. And training young horses in particular is rather specialized, aside from the fact that as I mentioned as a practical matter many top riders who show full-time on the circuit, teach, and do whatever else is required to run their business cannot also be at home training babies.
I also don’t think that adhering to a “purist” point of view does much to advance what is sorely lacking in this country - programs to bring along young horses.
