[QUOTE=spaghetti legs;4093578]
I’m not sure your horses need more treats ambrey… they appear to be on the verge of founder and cushings. ;)[/QUOTE]
Holy Cow! Born to Ride has an alter! :lol: :lol: :lol;
DA, would you advocate treating under saddle or using food rewards for a horse who is pushy, overbearing and who has zero respect for his inexperienced, timid (or just ignorant?) handler ? ? Just wondering what your opinions would be. This horse isn’t mean, but he’s chunky and uses his weight to his advantage to do whatever he wants. Would you advocate using food rewards for a horse like this?
I’ve been helping a lady out with a horse she’s just taken in and we’re working through a variety of strategies to see what works. The Big Guy is very food motivated.
My former trainer used to give treats during her rides. Then once, at the end of a test while she was saluting, her horse looked around to say “Hey, where’s my treat?” :lol:
I am a firm believe in the power of the food bribe. My horse will do almost anything for a cookie.
imo treats are not bribes if done properly=purposely after a job done well, not too much and timed appropriately. I use treats especially when teaching piaffe/passage as they are so difficult at first for the horse mentally and physically. It works. They really do appreciate the work when a treat shows up. But be careful with stallions or ‘mouthy’ horses.
And I stand by my statement regarding mouth and body connection. A horse that is stiff or tense in the body will be also in the mouth. Horses mouths don’t “go dead”. Attitude, fear, or training problems cause tenseness or lack of submission in the mouth. Controlling the haunches will change the way a horse connects with the bit/hands, as will light handling of the rein.
[QUOTE=spaghetti legs;4093683]
DA, would you advocate treating under saddle or using food rewards for a horse who is pushy, overbearing and who has zero respect for his inexperienced, timid (or just ignorant?) handler ? ? Just wondering what your opinions would be. This horse isn’t mean, but he’s chunky and uses his weight to his advantage to do whatever he wants. Would you advocate using food rewards for a horse like this?
I’ve been helping a lady out with a horse she’s just taken in and we’re working through a variety of strategies to see what works. The Big Guy is very food motivated.[/QUOTE]Yes I would. My mare who is 16.3 hands is not small horse either. If you have a food oriented horse that is inpatient, you can use food rewards to teach patience to it. It starts from the mounting block: mount and stand still and count to 100 - then give a food reward to your horse. That’s a simple exercise that even an “ignorant” rider can learn. During the work time, ask for down transition and then a soft halt, then stand and count again till lets say 30 - then give a food reward. Increase the count till 100 slowly. Halt at C, E, A, B and X. Do that exercise both directions. That should come to 10 down/halt transitions that should result in also 10 up transitions and 10 treats total. that’s a lot of treats, but you need to hook him at first and then skale back to less. After a week or two, your pushy, but food oriented horse should be standing much better and will try hard to behave for treats. But make sure that he stands for a while before giving him treats. I usually give about 5 treats per ride. you can also use sugar free life savers or any other horse cookies.
[QUOTE=FancyFree;4093701]
My former trainer used to give treats during her rides. Then once, at the end of a test while she was saluting, her horse looked around to say “Hey, where’s my treat?” :lol:
I am a firm believe in the power of the food bribe. My horse will do almost anything for a cookie.[/QUOTE]
mm oh yes! My horse is a chow hound!! He has earned the nickname at his barn of being the Overgrown Guinea Pig. :yes: embarassing, but true!
This lady’s horses have very poor ground manners and she really has no control over them. They drag her wherever it is they want to go… She has mentioned using food rewards and I just feel that if she were to start working with food, that they would run all over her and become ever pushier and probably mouthy as well. 
DA, i posted at the same time as you, so coming back to address your post… Yes you explained what to do really very well. Stepped it out nicely, thank you 
I would have to agree that your procedure seems really quite good and worth a try for her, if she knows exactly what she needs to do.
[QUOTE=chipkalee;4093707]
imo treats are not bribes if done properly=purposely after a job done well, not too much and timed appropriately. I use treats especially when teaching piaffe/passage as they are so difficult at first for the horse mentally and physically. It works. They really do appreciate the work when a treat shows up. But be careful with stallions or ‘mouthy’ horses.[/QUOTE]Yes. I started to work on the half steps and it’s like boiling milk: so easy to overdo it or loose, such a fine balance and understanding between rider and horse. I give lots of treats just for 5 feet of tight half steps…(Keeping in mind that I want to get to piaffe first and passage later)
[QUOTE=spaghetti legs;4093736]
DA, i posted at the same time as you, so coming back to address your post… Yes you explained what to do really very well. Stepped it out nicely, thank you I would have to agree that your procedure seems really quite good and worth a try for her, if she knows exactly what she needs to do.[/QUOTE]good luck and let me know how it will work
This lady’s horses have very poor ground manners and she really has no control over them. They drag her wherever it is they want to go… She has mentioned using food rewards and I just feel that if she were to start working with food, that they would run all over her and become ever pushier and probably mouthy as well.
As in literally dragging her around? That sounds like a horse with zero ground manners. Her horse might be beyond using treats to change that kind of behavior. As you said, it might make the horse even pushier. It sounds like he/she has no respect for the owner. I hope you can help her out before she gets hurt.
I have a neighbor who finds it really difficult to discipline. She’s in a similar situation. Not quite as bad though.
Good luck!
Using treats with certain horses can be a HUGE mistake. Count me out.
I tend to get horses that are extremely opinionated alpha types and I don’t want them looking for treats as a reward.
I stroke my horses, pat them and verbally tell them they are good when they figure out what I’m asking. They definately know what I’m talking about.
It has taken me three months to get the new horse I have to quit biting and nipping. No way am I going to use treats with him. He would even start nipping me whenever I began grooming him … he actually was just offering to return the grooming “favor”. He now nips in the air with his head turned away from me. You can hear his teeth going … chomp, chomp, chomp … he is very mouthy.
All horses are different to a certain extent. What works with many may not work with some.
The only time I consistently feed treats is after certain types of medical or vet procedures that actually hurt … then I will tell them how good they were and feed a treat.
I totally agree that it could be a slippery slope. My horse is very food motivated and can get obsessive at times… I’d have to think how that would play out with him before I implemented such a plan.
I was thinking, though, about the ability of food to distract/relax a tense horse, and what some people were saying about using a sugar cube to promote salivation, and how well it might work for a horse like the OP’s who is tense through the neck/jaw. It seemed like kind of an elegant solution
So, anyway, thanks again DA for your explanations!
Hit the Mountain with a Sugar Cube
Dressage Art,
I found the post under “the opposite of ring sour”. I am sure that pintopiaffe will be happy to give all of us more detail, if we say “Please”, with a treat…
[QUOTE=slc2;4087284]
‘Dead’ mouths start in the hind quarters.[/QUOTE]
I dont agree. Dead mouth start in the rider’s hands. If the hands dont follow and the contact is not even, activating the hindquarters results not in a soft jaw but in a set neck.
However, where you are correct is that when the jaw set, the muscles of the jaw called the masseters set. These are the most powerful pattern setters in the body and they have a direct influence on the spinal chain culminating in the sacrum. Tension there impact the withers, back and sacrum and the hyoid apparatus. So, tense masseters usually equals poorly functioning SI joint - or if you prefer not functioning as beautifully as it could. And it impacts the ability of the horse to arch its body and its neck softly. Tension there also causes the muscles of mastication, the temporalis muscles to tighten so that the horse does not chew as well as it should, or chews lopsided, or with less ROM in the figure 8 the jaw does when a healthy horse chews.
To the OP besides working on following and even contact even more then you do now, if you are open to to bodywork, one modality that works well for releasing the jaw is craniosacral work.
A lot of riders “think” they have following hands but they either hold on one rein or the other, or the timing of their hand is backward - they pull rather then push the hand out.
An image that worked for me was Jane Weathewax speaking of “riding the crest” to encourage riders to move their hands forward. Sally Swift speaks of pushing the baby carriage.
Originally posted by Karoline:
A lot of riders “think” they have following hands but they either hold on one rein or the other, or the timing of their hand is backward - they pull rather then push the hand out.
I do think this is a very true statement, unfortunately.
[QUOTE=Dressage Art;4093728]
Yes I would. My mare who is 16.3 hands is not small horse either. If you have a food oriented horse that is inpatient, you can use food rewards to teach patience to it. It starts from the mounting block: mount and stand still and count to 100 - then give a food reward to your horse. That’s a simple exercise that even an “ignorant” rider can learn. During the work time, ask for down transition and then a soft halt, then stand and count again till lets say 30 - then give a food reward. Increase the count till 100 slowly. Halt at C, E, A, B and X. Do that exercise both directions. That should come to 10 down/halt transitions that should result in also 10 up transitions and 10 treats total. that’s a lot of treats, but you need to hook him at first and then skale back to less. After a week or two, your pushy, but food oriented horse should be standing much better and will try hard to behave for treats. But make sure that he stands for a while before giving him treats. I usually give about 5 treats per ride. you can also use sugar free life savers or any other horse cookies.[/QUOTE]
People think giving treats is spoiling BUT when a horse chews according to TTouch they activate their limbic system, the part of the brain which facilitates learning. The TTEAM people have long used this in their ground work. When a horse becomes nervous, it gets a little grain to encourage chewing and relaxation. This was considered woowoo science, but in recent years there have been studies done on humans that shows that chewing gum improves learning ability. So, giving treats is a training enhancer really.
There are some TTouch exercices for relaxing the mouth in hand here:
Wow. Lots of replies. Thanks. My instructor says my hands were the other way actually - too soft and light. so now I am working on being a bit tougher. She needs to come more into a frame now, which she is doing, and understanding it better. Bothof us. I am working those hind legs under me and she is much more snappy in both up and down transitions. This is helping. She has always blown through my downward aids but is now becoming much more obedient. However, if she would just let go and give to me more, we could progress more happily. she has always felt dead in the mouth as in whenever I’ve picked up the reins, there is nothing there but a dead weight. Which is why my instructor wants to encourage her to move her mouth more as this would help both of us - would make my life a bit easier.
[QUOTE=BaroquePony;4093789]
It has taken me three months to get the new horse I have to quit biting and nipping. No way am I going to use treats with him. He would even start nipping me whenever I began grooming him …[/QUOTE]No, no, no… You do NOT give the “riding” treats on the ground, EVER!! Riding treats are a very special treats that can be given only under the saddle as a REWARD for the good execution of the exercise. If riding treats will be used while grooming just “because”… - the whole idea of “reward under the saddle” will go out of the door and will not work.
I give carrots when I do carrot stretches for my mare on the ground. But peppermints are only for the reward under the saddle. Horse can not get pepermints any other way, but try his/her best under the saddle. It is a very important distinction.
PS: thank you Whicker
[QUOTE=Kit;4094241]
Wow. Lots of replies. Thanks. My instructor says my hands were the other way actually - too soft and light. so now I am working on being a bit tougher. She needs to come more into a frame now, which she is doing, and understanding it better. Bothof us. I am working those hind legs under me and she is much more snappy in both up and down transitions. This is helping. She has always blown through my downward aids but is now becoming much more obedient. However, if she would just let go and give to me more, we could progress more happily. she has always felt dead in the mouth as in whenever I’ve picked up the reins, there is nothing there but a dead weight. Which is why my instructor wants to encourage her to move her mouth more as this would help both of us - would make my life a bit easier.[/QUOTE]Well, that sounds quite different. I would say that it’s not a “dead mouth”, but a heavy, resistant mouth. Dead mouth to me is light and non responsive… anywho… sounds like you don’t have a constant contact with the bit yet either… sounds like your horse is overloading her shoulders and pulling thru your reins in the transitions. In this case, I would suggest quite a different approach…
First of all you need to learn how to follow your horse’s mouth and how to maintain an even, constant contact with both reins. It should be the same contact as you have if you have your little/light purse on your shoulder - the purse straps have a constant contact, they do not flap or go: pressure/no pressure… the same pressure you will have to have in the transitions. Until you will develop that, your horse will not trust your contact to be the same all the time, and instead will try to protect his mouth and resist the constant changes in your contact.
Then you need to do exercisers to get the level balance and ask your horse not to drop on the forehand. Only when your horse will be OFF forehand and will have a level balance, then he/she will be able to “give” and lighten in contact.
Sorry, no amount of flexions or treats will help on the forehand horse with a heavy pulling mouth with too light, flapping reins. It’s really the balance of the horse that desides when a horse can/should “come in to the frame” as you say.
So, DA are you saying that you never give treats on the ground? Or that you reserve the “special treats” - the peppermints - for the saddle? Very clever.
DA, totally off subject, but do youtrain for the piaffe on the ground before your work in the saddle?
