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Any tips to soften jaw?

Dressage
#81

Originally posted by DressageArt:

[QUOTE]Quote:
Originally Posted by BaroquePony
It has taken me three months to get the new horse I have to quit biting and nipping. No way am I going to use treats with him. He would even start nipping me whenever I began grooming him …

No, no, no… You do NOT give the “riding” treats on the ground, EVER!! Riding treats are a very special treats that can be given only under the saddle as a REWARD for the good execution of the exercise. If riding treats will be used while grooming just “because”… - the whole idea of “reward under the saddle” will go out of the door and will not work. [/QUOTE]

DA , get a grip. I did not say I give treats on the ground except for after any painful vet or medical care. I was just giving an example of a VERY mouthy horse. I wouldn’t even consider giving him treats from the saddle.

Now, as far as treats from in the saddle … this pony reached around and bit my foot the first day I was in the saddle. He is NOT the first horse that I have encountered that will do this. I do not like to feed treats (except for vet type stuff) on the ground or in the saddle with my own personal horses and many others that I have worked with. That is in large part because I usually own opinionated alpha horses and I tend to get chow hounds. They love to work and they love to eat. I am the same way.

I did not start the horse I just got. He came in very spoiled, pushy and he had absolutely no ground manners. NONE.

When I start babies myself, I prefer to hang a bit in their mouth when they eat. They learn to chew around the bit and not associate me with treats.

Personally, I don’t like the method as a routine.

I work hard to ride correctly. I apologize to my horses when I am a clutz. I get them working correctly fairly quickly (if not immediatley), which does activate a number of good physical metabolic systems. They figure that out quickly, and it is not that hard to get them ‘addicted’ to correct work.

All that being said, I think SOME horses benefit from a small time period of using treats.

#82

There is a difference between a horse that is just heavy in your hand and one that is really tense in the jaw.

#83

[QUOTE=Kit;4094241]
Wow. Lots of replies. Thanks. My instructor says my hands were the other way actually - too soft and light. so now I am working on being a bit tougher. She needs to come more into a frame now, which she is doing, and understanding it better. Bothof us. I am working those hind legs under me and she is much more snappy in both up and down transitions. This is helping. She has always blown through my downward aids but is now becoming much more obedient. However, if she would just let go and give to me more, we could progress more happily. she has always felt dead in the mouth as in whenever I’ve picked up the reins, there is nothing there but a dead weight. Which is why my instructor wants to encourage her to move her mouth more as this would help both of us - would make my life a bit easier.[/QUOTE]

Framing is counterproductive because it produces head set and neck set. What you do with your hand determines how fluid and supple your whole horse is or is not. So, if you frame, you in essence block the back and you may have a horse that moves its legs but does not move its back or both its half longitudinally.

Perhaps what you have are ribbons reins and your instructor is recomending you shorten your reins. But even with shorter reins your hips should push your elbow and your hands must accomodate the bascule of the head. Much more so on a young horse like yours.

You dont get a horse to let go and give to you more by adding more contact, I know it seems an outdated concept but the horse is actually supposed to seek the bit. The other way is hand riding. It impairs the horse balance and its not good for their bones or their muscles because it crowds the vertebras and it creates tension that damages muscles.

The hind leg coming under. Actually what creates impulsion is not the hind leg coming under as much as it is the horse using the 3 joints in its hindlegs - I dont know the term in english, its plie in french - and loading both hind legs equally.

Of course since we cant see you these are just generalities of what can cause a horse to feel like a dead weight in the rein and not chew. Your situation may be different altogether.

There was a spanish study quoted I think in Equus that said that a huge percentage of horses have ulcers in their mouth. Perhaps that is the case for your mare.

#84

They are different, and have different remedies, but NEITHER of them are a problem of the jaw. If the horse eats just fine, there is nothing wrong with his jaw. The problem is the state of tension in the back!

Sorry to keep harping, but I feel sorry for the horses when riders look for ways to make the symptom go away without fixing the actual cause of it. “Fixing” the tense jaw can have nearly the same result as riding in draw reins depending on how it’s “fixed”. The problem appears fixed, and the rider has a false sense that the horse is now light in their hands. But the horse will not be correctly connected from back to front and moving through his back, because the problem was fixed at the wrong end.

OP, just try some basic excercises like turn on the forehand in hand and see for yourself if the horse doesn’t start to chew and relax her jaw when the lateral movement and bending starts to relax his body. You are then correctly addressing the root of the problem instead of the symptom.

#85

[QUOTE=chipkalee;4094442]
So, DA are you saying that you never give treats on the ground? [/QUOTE]Yes, I do carrot stretches and my horse knows a lot of tricks as well, like bowing and smiling, so I ask her to do those silly things and she gets a treat, usually a carrot or a cheep horse cookie that she doesn’t care about much. I rarely give my horse a treat just for nothing. I at least ask her to smile.

[QUOTE=chipkalee;4094442]Or that you reserve the “special treats” - the peppermints - for the saddle? Very clever.[/QUOTE]Yes, that’s the idea. Their favorite treats are saved only for under the saddle. Sugar is not good for horses or for anybody, but boy so many of us are guilty of craving it - so my mare needs to work for it and earn it :wink:

#86

[QUOTE=AnotherRound;4094465]
DA, totally off subject, but do you train for the piaffe on the ground before your work in the saddle?[/QUOTE]
Arthur Kottas started the very first half steps in hand with my mare last summer. I had/have an ambition to learn how to do that and he tried to teach me. However, it’s a lot of work to do it correctly in hand - you need to have exact equipment and put it just right and so on. And then you should only do it for 5-15 minutes per day. It takes a long time to learn it correctly. You need to know the timing really good in hand NOT to mess up the correct rhythm of half steps. And rhythm is the most importance, since if you will get your rhythm off at the beginning - it’s really hard to get it back. So at the beginning the most important thing is to keep the same rhythm and keep the horse on the “same” spot as much as you can. So it was just too much for me to learn and it’s easier for me to do it from the saddle. My mare is “connected” enough that I can play with it. So for now, I am doing them only under the saddle myself with no whip – whip also can break a rhythm. I also had help of 2 of my other GP clinicians with our half steps. Our half steps are coming very slow, they are quite grounded, but they are even and rhythmical = and as I understand, this is what is important in the first year. As I had been taught you start them very slowly, but early. I’m suppose to try to get piaffe steps (or resemblance of piaffe steps) first and then passage steps after piaffe steps. I was told not to try to do passage steps before piaffe steps, since it can be actually worse for the progression of piaffe. Back then, when I use to be a working student, I’ve been a “P-monkey” for one of my trainers: you know you sit on the horse while she works in hand with the horse(s)… but this is my very first horse that I’m trying to train half steps myself, so I really don’t have much experience in that area.

#87

Da I wish you big, bouncy, balanced piaffe steps!:winkgrin:

#88

[QUOTE=chipkalee;4094966]
Da I wish you big, bouncy, balanced piaffe steps!:winkgrin:[/QUOTE]Oh thank you, I’ll take those :smiley:

#89

Work in hand is simply not that difficult if someone shows you how. It is great thing for developing a horse. A couple of steps everyday (as soon as they do w/t/c) for a couple of minutes. It is developing a reaction/a different balance, and learning touch points for the handlers. Much better developed in hand w/o the weight of the rider and the interference of their aids and helps to mobilize the jaw.

#90

[QUOTE=Karoline;4094722]

There was a spanish study quoted I think in Equus that said that a huge percentage of horses have ulcers in their mouth. Perhaps that is the case for your mare.[/QUOTE]

this is what happened with my mare. she had all sorts of neck issues, mouth issues had the vet out, had her scoped, had her x-rayed, had her teeth done. over a year and many very bills later my new vet found a half dollar sized ulcer in her mouth back behind her last top tooth. every time she put her head down that ulcer was being rubbed by her bottom tooth. once that bottom tooth was worked on she has been 100% better.

i second having the vet look behind her last top teeth.

#91

A horse can’t maintain resistance in a single part of his body?

#92

Good resource for those interested in doing some in-hand work;

http://www.amazon.com/Schooling-Horses-Hand-Suppling-Collection/dp/1570762058/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1242399178&sr=1-4

#93

Second the recommendation for turns on the forehand… We are doing that w/my mare now… Turn on the forehand, trot out, do whatever exercises, when she gets tense, bring her back down to a walk, barely halt, do another turn on the forehand, trot out. She comes out of the turn on the forehand very soft and light in the bridle, and “sitting” better.

Only problem is that she hates turn on the forehand to the left. To the right, she puts her head down and chews and just makes a very pretty circle around her front hooves. To the left… ugh. Backing up, picking up her front feet (she will rear if she’s pressed too hard), head up, stiff and unhappy. What we’ve been doing is having the trainer work her front end from the ground, while I work her hindquarters from on top, lots of praise for every good step she takes, and she’s starting to improve. Oddly enough, even if the turn on the forehand is terrible, she comes out at the trot nice and soft. She’s definitely got some crookedness issues, and is getting chiro on Tuesday and hopefully that will help.

#94

A horse will NEVER be tense in his jaw if his back is TRUELY relaxed, swinging, and active.

#95

Originally posted by lstevenson:

[QUOTE]Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambrey
A horse can’t maintain resistance in a single part of his body?

A horse will NEVER be tense in his jaw if his back is TRUELY relaxed, swinging, and active.[/QUOTE]

Anyone can state the obvious. Of course a horse that is working correctly is. working. correctly.

A horse can be very tense in a specific area and the rest of the biomechanical system can be reasonably relaxed. It is relative. This is NOT the same as a horse that is truly coming through from behind into a soft and chewing mouth with the back arched upward and swinging.

If a very well schooled rider with a correct Independent Seat gets on a horse that is tense and improperly schooled it is inhumane to ask the horse to work correctly all of a sudden … even if that could magically transpire without the horse becoming upset.

The most the rider can do is how the horse a more correct method of moving and do it for a very short time period, and then let the horse walk out.

The musculature of an improperly schooled horse has to be totally reschooled and allowed to stretch and strengthen into a correct frame.

Since this type of horse is not working correctly in the first place there should be no humane reason that working with a few concepts that help the horse become more relaxed in the process should be such a controversial matter.

It takes time and patience to develop a horse, especially one that is not schooled properly from the very beginning, to reach a point where the horse can come onto the aids in a balanced, active and supple manner.

Horses do not immediately accept the bit and begin chewing it just because a rider gets on and asks the horse to ‘activates the hindquarters’.

#96

If it’s so obvious to you that the horse working correctly through the back will relax the jaw, then why would you suggest working on the mouth of the horse to get the horse to relax the jaw? Don’t forget short cuts become the long way in the long run, as they usually don’t address the root of the problem.

[quote=BaroquePony;4095753]Horses do not immediately accept the bit and begin chewing it just because a rider gets on and asks the horse to ‘activates the hindquarters’.
[/quote]

You’d be suprised. As I said in a previous post, a simple turn on the forehand in hand, even on a greenie, will get the horse to relax it’s jaw and chew on the inside rein.

#97

Inhumane to work on relaxing the horse’s back rather than work on it’s mouth? I think you have that backwards.

#98

Originally posted by lstevenson:

[QUOTE]Quote:
Originally Posted by BaroquePony
Anyone can state the obvious.

If it’s so obvious to you that the horse working correctly through the back will relax the jaw, then why would you suggest working on the mouth of the horse to get the horse to relax the jaw? Don’t forget short cuts become the long way in the long run, as they usually don’t address the root of the problem.[/QUOTE]

Because we are not dealing with a horse (the OP’s horse) that is working correctly through the back. We are dealing with a horse that, at best, has not even learned to play with the bit. Playing with the bit is not the same as softly chewing the bit, although it can be depending on the individual horse, but it is the beginning of the soft progression toward that goal.

Originally posted by lstevenson:

[QUOTE]Quote:
Originally Posted by BaroquePony
Horses do not immediately accept the bit and begin chewing it just because a rider gets on and asks the horse to ‘activates the hindquarters’.

You’d be suprised. As I said in a previous post, a simple turn on the forehand in hand, even on a greenie, will get the horse to relax it’s jaw and chew on the inside rein. [/QUOTE]

You are comparing apples to oranges when you compare a green horse to an improperly schooled horse. Improper schooling can run the gambit from relatively easy to fix problems to almost impossible to fix problems. A green horse is a clean slate without having a musculature that has been conditioned to literally work against itself, creating tension and in the long run probably unsoundness issues, once again, depending on the individual horse and how hard it is worked over time.

A well schooled rider should be able to take a green horse and progress easily with developing a supple, relaxed forward horse that will eventually come though from behind and be on the aids.

However, a less than perfectly working rider will not have such an easy road, especially if they are working with a horse that may have become a bit tense through a bit of less than perfect riding.

So, I prefer to have the team drop back to exercises that will not, in any manner, put the horse into a ‘vice’, ie. using both hands (both rein aids), at the same time. Period.

Once the rider begins using just an opening rein and the inside leg, the horse can not be locked into a trap by applying all of the aids before the rider is ready to apply them correctly. Horse relaxes, rider feels what relaxed is, then rider can pick up the outside rein and if the horse gets tense, rider can immediatley drop that rein … continue until rider can pick up rein and horse stays relaxed. That is only one exercise out of many, but the premise is always the same … back to basics, no matter how simple.

No, it is not “correct” if you are disussing only a horse that is properly on the aids and coming through from behind into a relaxed jaw, but that isn’t what is being discussed here.

ETA: applying one aid at a time is not a short cut, the aids are still the same as they will be further on down the line when the rider begins to apply all of the aids in conjunction with each other.

#99

I know! That is exactly my point! That that is the cause of the horse feeling tense in it’s jaw, and not the jaw itself. And that’s what the rider should be focusing on, not trying to use their hands to find ways to make the jaw feel less tense.

[quote=BaroquePony;4095892]We are dealing with a horse that, at best, has not even learned to play with the bit.
[/quote]

The correctly trained dressage horse should NOT play with the bit. That should NEVER be a goal.

#100

lstevenson, sometimes I think you are being intentionally obtuse.

A correctly trained dressage horse should softly chew the bit. A green horse that has just been introduced to the bit does need to learn to play with it. They don’t just start off chewing the bit like a well schooled dressage horse.

A horse that has become dull to the bit … as in hard mouthed, sour and/or tense … also needs to learn to play with the bit.

If I am taking a sour horse out on a trail, I want them to relax. I am not going to be asking them to flex at the poll for at least three quarters of the time I’m out there. I want them to go out and enjoy themselves … I stop at certain grass patches and let them eat … I will ask them at certain points to begin to come onto the aids, but I don’t expect perfection, only an honest effort on their part which I get.

It takes time, effort and conditioning just to prepare a horse for serious school work which should begin with training level.

I don’t even understand where you are coming from. You act as if the minute YOU get on a horse it is atomatically going to be coming through from behind into a soft and chewing mouth just because YOU are so correct of a rider.

I 've seen some pretty outstanding horsemen/women get in the tack and they seem to take things a bit slower.

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