Any tips to soften jaw?

[lstevenson]

@BaroquePony;4096877

A green horse that has just been introduced to the bit does need to learn to play with it.

Absolutely disagree. I have never even heard anyone make such a statement before. Having the horse “play with the bit” is never, NEVER a goal in correct dressage, even with a green or so called “hard mouthed” horse (again that has NOTHING to do with the mouth and everything to do with tension in the body).

And no, green or incorrectly started horses don’t just magically come through from behind. It’s called training. But that training still has to be correct. Any fiddling that you do with your hands is only teaching the horse to “give” to your hands and tuck his nose, which is not what we want.

[BaroquePony]

lsteveson, since you are obsessive compulsive about riding the horse from back to front, do tell what you ride them into. We’ll just ignore green and ruined horses for the moment and pretend that all horses start off with the inate understanding of going forward with an active hind leg and in balance with a complete understanding if the seat and leg aids.

[BaroquePony]

Originally posted by lstevenson:

Any fiddling that you do with your hands is only teaching the horse to “give” to your hands and tuck his nose, which is not what we want.

Oh, I suppose a horse that is above the bit should be left to his own devices?

I don’t want a horse to “tuck his nose” … that sounds like an abrupt dropping of or behind the bit.

I do want a horse to come into my hand. That is not going to happen if I just shorten my reins and keep an even contact like I’m a set of side reins. In order for a horse to truly come onto the aids, I have to sympathetically bounce the horse between my aids over a time period before the horse can really come into alignement with the spine parallel to the track of the movement at all times.

Like the difference between the leg yeild and the shoulder-in. Leg yeild excepting that the horse had not yet developed an even bend … the even bend being the true goal.

[lstevenson]

@BaroquePony;4096970

lsteveson, since you are obsessive compulsive about riding the horse from back to front, do tell what you ride them into. We’ll just ignore green and ruined horses for the moment and pretend that all horses start off with the inate understanding of going forward with an active hind leg and in balance with a complete understanding if the seat and leg aids.

I teach my riders to ride their horses into a quiet, still (iow no fiddling), elastic contact. That basic rule is true for ALL dressage horses, whether training level, second level, green, incorrectly started, or whatever. The amount and quality of the connection is obviously different for horses at different levels, but the basics remain the same.

Green or incorrectly started horses have no problems with a light connection on both reins, as I make sure they understand this concept first by lunging in side reins. The rider’s elastic consistant contact is quite similar to the consistant elastic connection in the rubber donut side reins. Therefore the horse feels comfortable moving forward into the connection, as it should be.

[BaroquePony]

While generally I agree with your statement above, there are many times that this does not work out as consistently as you seem to make it sound.

You are leaving out many of the instances where the horse comes off of the elastic feel and you seem to be sticking within the range of students that have reached a level of riding where they can use an even and elastic feel. This is more advanced and you have chosen to ignore my paragraphs involving less than perfect riders on less than perfect horses … which is a very common issue in America.

[lstevenson]

I’ve been teaching and training for 25 years, and I have yet to find a horse that doesn’t respond to it. If they briefly come off of the elastic feel, the bending aids and the excercises we have available such as circles, turn on the forehand, leg yield, or shoulder in to put the horse back into the connection.

And if the rider is not yet able to achieve an even and elastic feel then they should be working on themselves, on the lunge working on their seats so they develop quiet hands, and should definitely NOT be messing around with their horses’ mouths.

[goeslikestink]

agree l stevenson

perhaps the op would read my helpful links pages which are also on a sticky above
hands play an important part to how the horse goes and by that i mean bad hands

read links 2 3 and 4 and especially no 2 bits and bit advasion
and whilse at read all page 1

as its all relevent – plus t has working diagrams of what each bit and bridle does on link
3
plus on link 4 and 5 and no 1 has diagrams and explainations of where to place your horse when doing baisic movements
asin like si or leg yeilding

also on last pages of helpful links there a link to horses heros
if one was to click on the side bar will show you other clips and videos
which again are relevent

then you will see where lsteveson is comming from and any good instructor will work the horse fromhis butt to poll to a relaxed yaw working with an independant seat and secure legs and soft hands

look here http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=178116

and baroque pony i will add that l stevenson is a qualified instructor BHSAI and not some wishy washy person
that thinks they can trian so calls themselves a trainer

[BaroquePony]

goeslikestink and lstevenson,

“Squeezing water out of a sponge” comes straight out of the British Horse Society Pony Club books. Every “A” Pony Clubber and every BHSAI that I have met I have known knows exactly what “squeezing water out of a sponge” means relative to the rein aids. It is not called “fiddling with the reins”.

I do agree 100% with the classical approach to correct riding and training, however there are many situations where that is just not practical in every day riding in the USA. There are some things that are simple that can help a lot without adhereing strictly to the classical approach. These things only apply to pre-training level dressage.

lstevenson implies that some of the simple concepts that I and several others put forth are ruinous to a horse’s future in dressage which I find to be a bit extreme and unsubstantiated.

lstevenson also lumps together rein aids such as “squeezing water out of a sponge” and “vibrating the rein” into the same category as “pulling back” and “see-sawing” on the reins, lumping them all togther as “fiddling”. Not only is that condescending, but it ignores one of the basic BHS Pony Club exercises.

It is also hard for me to reconcile some of Ms. Stevenson’s anomosity toward aids that I have learned from “I” judges and SRS instructors which I have seen work over and over.

I have worked with a number of BHSAI instuctors over the years and they don’t seem to have the same attitude as Ms. Stevenson.

[slc2]

Fact is though, BP, you try to get people to do some of the things you’re talking about, and they go home and do, indeed, just ‘fiddle with the reins’ and waggle their horse’s head back and forth like a used car salesman’s head.

That doesn’t make you wrong, but it also doesn’t make lstevenson wrong. You guys both want to have one of you be wrong (so does gls, lol!).

She’s right. People DO tuss that up. And yes, what you’re saying is true too. A lot of times, it’s better to just get people to sit there and hold their hands still, LOL. People get so excited about ‘framing up’ the horse and getting him to put his head down and chin in, that they go bananas with the hands.

At some point, though, it isn’t enough to just float along, and people have to go thru the process of learning to influence their horse. If all one ever does is try not to do anything with the reins, one gets a very stiff, off balance horse that does not bend and is not through.

‘Spongeing the reins’ is indeed taught, so is vibrating the reins, etc. But at any given point, it is either right or wrong to do those things. People take ‘spongeing the reins’ and wind up waggling the head back and forth and ‘putting their horse in a frame’ by making him drop the bit by jerking first one rein and then the other (it doesn’t matter if it’s done hard or soft, it’s still a problem). People ‘sponge the reins’ to get their horse to ‘assume the position’ and drop the bit.

Is it useful at times? OH YEAH. The problem is, NONE of these things is appropriate ALL the time, for ALL students, for ALL horses, for ALL problems. It’s just as inappropriate to ‘offer a pair of siderein hands’ to a horse at times as well. “Side rein hands” encourage pullers to pull more, and don’t help horses that are off balance. It VERY much helps people that tend to be over-fussy with their hands, but it’s not right for every situation, and when people go home and work by themselves for long periods, they’re just as likely to do that wrong as anything else.

And no, actually, despite the many times it’s repeated here as the perfect solution to pulling, dropping the reins only makes the horse fall off balance more, and then jerk his head up and drop his back to try to regain his balance.

Yes, theoretically every thing you could do with your reins, including pulling the horses nose around to your knee, is needed at some point in SOME ride, such as when horsey decides to make a break for home or stand on his hind legs.

It’s finding what is appropriate for each horse/rider/stage on that day, that’s the key.

[Ambrey]

I don’t know- I interpret Lstevenson’s post as saying that you never do anything with the reins to encourage flexion other than steady contact. I would say a lot of trainers, even top trainers do not teach that way.

[slc2]

Ask her, but I hardly think she really means that.

[lstevenson]

@Ambrey;4097518

I don’t know- I interpret Lstevenson’s post as saying that you never do anything with the reins to encourage flexion other than steady contact. I would say a lot of trainers, even top trainers do not teach that way.

Ambrey, If you go back and read my posts, I said that there is nothing wrong with asking for flexion. What matters is why you are asking for flexion…what the riders’ intent is. A rider needs to ask for flexion to set the horse up for a proper bend, and to be properly aligned for circles and lateral work.

But it’s use to “lighten the horse in your hand” or “soften it’s jaw” that is on that slipperly slope to riding from front to back. If a rider (or trainer) has the mindset that they don’t like the way the horse feels in their hand, and that they need to “work” their hand to make the horse feel lighter in it, that is going after the wrong end of the horse. Engaging the hind end properly is the ONLY way to ACTUALLY make the horse TRUELY lighter in your hand. Period.

So it’s not that the act of “squeezing water out of a sponge” is necessarily wrong, but if you are using it to attain a certain “frame” or to make the horse feel “lighter” in your hand then it is incorrect.

[Dressage_Art]

“lighten the horse in your hand” === the only correct way to do this is thru re-distribution of balance. Yes, there are quick fixes (draw reins/gag bits), but in the long run the false contact will show in the head tilting in the lateral work and so on.

[QUOTE=lstevenson;4097083]
And if the rider is not yet able to achieve an even and elastic feel then they should be working on themselves, on the lunge working on their seats so they develop quiet hands, and should definitely NOT be messing around with their horses’ mouths.[/QUOTE]
Yes.

Unfortunately some riders have quite a complimentary view of their skills, or may be they never watched themselves on the video… but they tend to put most of the blame on their horse for “not giving” or for a “hard mouth”. But it takes 2 to tango. And it’s the rider who need to “give” first. All the time… but not to the point of flapping rains…

Some people yank on their horse’s mouth and blame horses for not having a soft & steady contact with the bit. But if there is a tag-war the more intellectual end should give - and between horse and rider - it should be a rider. To aspect a horse to give from pressure is just unrealistic.

Horse goes in to the self carriage only when the balance allows him/her to do that. If the horse is on the forehand and overloading shoulders, and leaving his/her hind legs behind, not using her/his hind legs enough to get at least a level balance - she shoulders pull the neck down and horse has to balance himself with the head/neck. the idea is to give to the horse better balance, so it doesn’t have to balance himself so much with head/neck = then he will not pull on the reins, but start slowly raising/arching the neck/head up toward the self carriage.

It starts from lightening the shoulders and distributing this weight more on the hind end of the horse.

I again have to underline that it comes from riding the WHOLE horse, not only front end… and not only the hind end = but riding the whole horse and clear understanding how the balance distribution affects horse’s neck/head carriage.

[Dressage_Art]

For those who already have a steady, following hands and are working on the “lighten the horse in your hand” my advice would be:

• transitions, transitions and more transitions to re-distribute the weight/balance more to the hind end and off the forehand. In the moment that you are doing a transition, think about asking with your seat the hind end to step under another inch, try to tuck the hind end just a bit more under with your seat. Rock back for an inch and try to pause in the middle of the transition for a split second – to encourage the horse to re-balance and THINK in the moment of transition. On “the forehand” is one of the biggest killers of the “lighten the horse in your hand”.

• Lots of stretching down and forward for 5-10 strides and picking your horse back up… then doing that again and again and again on all 3 gaits. Horse needs to learn how to be responsive in the mouth and follow the bit down and up when asked.

• Ask for the correct inside flexion in the corners. Horse needs to learn how to follow the hand when asked to be flexed. Corners are great for teaching that. Counter flexion in the corners is one of the biggest killers of the “lighten the horse in your hand”.

• Start to displace shoulders in the lateral movements such as shoulder-for for 3 strides at a time– you need to learn how to control shoulders before you can control hunches. That also goes for the horse, which needs to displace shoulders first and then he can learn how to displace hunches (start on renvers after shoulder-in in mastered). It’s important to be able to control/displace only shoulders, independently from the hind end – on of the way towards getting a bend thru the whole body of the horse… (minus the fused part of the spine)

If you have all those 5 ingredients - you are on the way toward correctly “lighten the horse in your hand”. If you are missing one of them - work hard to fix it.

[goeslikestink]

bp read this link – it might help you
http://www.meredithmanor.com/features/articles/faith/fixing_bit_evasions.asp

[Ambrey]

I guess I was talking about something completely different, as what I was thinking of “locked jaw” does not feel heavy in the hand. It was simply resisting flexion.

I can see what you are talking about now. I wouldn’t have thought to suggest moving the bit in the mouth for a horse that is heavy in the hand, if I’d been thinking of it that way, though, because for my horse it just wouldn’t help. It would be like trying to plug the amazon with a toothpick.

[AnotherRound]

This has been a really interesting thread. I don’t have a horse with this problem ( I don’t have a horse right now), but have ridden them before with what I think must have been this problem and didn’t know enough about what to do with it, and the discussion has covered some really interesting aspects.

I had to edit to add, DA, that this comment of yours:

• Ask for the correct inside flexion in the corners. Horse needs to learn how to follow the hand when asked to be flexed. Corners are great for teaching that. Counter flexion in the corners is one of the biggest killers of the “lighten the horse in your hand”.

Really made alot of sense to me. My trainer was asking me to do this, and I didn’t understand why, just did it. I have been getting him to follow my hand when asking for flexion, and she was having me do it in the corners, then carry through on the straight, and she also asked me to bend him a little on the straight to get the flexion back on the straight, just so I could learn it, and those lessons have all been tied together with the 8 steps or so of stretching and the shoulder fore and other things you talked about. I didn’t know she was trying to get the horse to lighten up in the front, necessarily, but that’s what he did. He begain to really move out on my trot transitions, because I was freeing up his front end by getting him responsive. I think. It was new to me, and I have only had about 4 sessions of this. Very interesting, and thanks for the clarificaiton.

[Dressage_Art]

AR, some things are really simple if we will look at them as small peaces of the big plan and ask “how do we get from A to Z”. I think if we will think that most movements take several years to train and it starts with the very, very small things, = we’ll be more determined to execute and ask for those small things. For example, Half Passes starts with correct corners at training level. Shoulder-in starts with the correct corners at training level. So when you are riding a correct corner, you are really preparing and training your horse for the lateral work. And it’s so important… I hear so many trainers keep on asking their students to ride correct corners and so many riders disregarding them… I can’t even tell you how much further you will go with your horses if you will ride correct corners. They will unlock many, many doors for you.

Also I had a chance to ask Hilda Gurney about how she works her horses for piaffe. In short, she said that she trained more than 100 horses to GP. She works most of them from the ground with the help of the Spanish trainer and she uses 2-3 people to work them on the ground. She said there is only a couple who were able to learn piaffing with out ground work.

[Kit]

I’ve just got back from being away. So, so many relevant comments to my situation and thank you all! Actually, by the sounds of it, my trainer is bang on track with us. One thing we are working on is the correct flexions in corners and that has been so hard for us (although I thought our corners were ok, horse has always been hard to flex inwards). Also putting in 10m circles. This is along with most of the other things you are talking about so this gives me huge faith in my trainer (not that I ever had any doubt as I’ve been really happy with what the trainer has been working on and how it is helping us). And yes, horse is not as flexible in her body as she could be. I have lots of hard work ahead of me and you know, I’m really looking forward to it!

[slc2]

Actually quite a few trainers use a very minimal amount of ground work for piaffe, and not to ‘teach’ it but just to polish it a bit. Probably not ‘none’ for a finished competition piaffe, but there are different ways to get there, DA. Trainer I worked with largely ‘taught’ piaffe without ground work, it was only a little bit toward the end to polish it; exactly how of each type of training depending on the horse. Some use half steps under saddle a greater % of the training, others less. When half steps are used it may start at first level type of training and develop gradually over years, the in hand work is just to get a little more expression toward the end. There is no right and wrong for this; it is by the individual horse and by the individual trainer. Some who are a fan of doing more in hand argue that half steps method doesn’t create enough expression, others say too much in hand work makes a horse frantic and half steps result in a very quiet, relaxed piaffe that is non stressful. Those who mix both as needed, seem to get the best of both worlds.