Anybody here well versed in Morgans?

[halt]

@MsM

I’m not expert on Morgans or bloodlines, but I do have a palomino Morgan!

IME, Morgans are a specific taste so there is not as large a buyer pool as there is for QH or TB. As a stallion, your buyers are limited even more and of course bloodlines are more important. If he is not breeding quality, a buyer will figure in their cost and time invested in gelding so it lowers his value to them. His color is a plus for most buyers although some breeders remain conservative.

There is a Morgan sale page on the Registry website which may give you some insight.

I would be interested to know his bloodlines.

a little off topic but on the subject of morgans and valuations of them –

a few months back on my FB feed, there was an attractive palomino WB gelding that was listed for sale by a horse seller local to me.

he was in his early teens, ~16h, used as a lesson horse, no recognized show history but some local show mileage, looked sound for the job he was doing in the videos i watched. i remember looking at him because i was curious what his bloodlines were, there aren’t a lot of WBs here of color besides Art Deco… he looked like a nice fellow, was a good mover in the video and seemed pretty honest. they were asking $10,000 obo which seemed a little high for my area, for an unpapered WB with no show history - especially a lesson horse, which tends to go for about ~$4500 here give or take… but he was a PALOMINO warmblood and generated a lot of interest.

it sure was interesting when someone who knew the horse (prior owners, apparently) were quick to point out the horse in question was actually a morgan.

fooled me (someone who is pretty familiar with morgans), and about the ~50 other people that commented on the sale post. and after that, the interest almost completely died off once his real breed was exposed - since 10k for a morgan is somewhat less tenable than 10k for a WB of the same resume/experience.

goes to show you how much weight is put in the perception of “quality” when something is assigned to it, like “warmblood” or “morgan”. the horse’s quality did not change, but the perception of it sure did.

i imagine he must have been bred from one of the better morgan breeding farms around here. he did not at all have the conformation i usually associate with morgans and didn’t have the flat open hocks or the morgan way of going… so i assume he must have been quite carefully bred for sport.

[tabula_rashah]

@Centuree

The OP already mentioned the owner cannot afford it due to very tragic circumstances that have befallen her.

He’s got a cute face, and I hope you are able to assist the owner in finding a great home for this little guy.

Yes, I can read thanks. But if she wants to get any money out of him, she’s not likely at all to get it with him whole.

[Abbie.S]

@GraceLikeRain

After seeing the pictures I think finding him a good home for free - $1,500 is a good deal. Personally, I wouldn’t look twice at him as a riding prospect. His structure really is counter productive for any type of real work. Of course, with a great mind he may be a great riding horse but he doesn’t scream prospect for anything. If she cannot afford $200 to geld him then placing him for free via connections may be the quickest way to get him off her feed bill.

I don’t see stallion prospect, but I’m not sure how anyone can comment much on his structure - he’s a weedy-looking 2yo and the pictures are pretty terrible for concluding anything except “yup, that a palomino horse”. :winkgrin:

In a couple of years with a good feed program and some basic correct work appropriate to his age, he’d probably make a nice little lower level project for someone.

However, I do agree with the general premise expressed which is that if you, OP, can find some way to get him gelded, that will benefit the horse and his owner tremendously. Otherwise, I can totally see this colt being bought for bottom dollar by some loony who never gets him castrated or backs him but instead breeds many pretty colored babies of varying levels of awkward.

Do you want to help this person enough that you would agree to pay for the castration and be reimbursed from the sale of the horse? Just an idea.

[pattnic]

@halt

a little off topic but on the subject of morgans and valuations of them –

a few months back on my FB feed, there was an attractive palomino WB gelding that was listed for sale by a horse seller local to me.

he was in his early teens, ~16h, used as a lesson horse, no recognized show history but some local show mileage, looked sound for the job he was doing in the videos i watched. i remember looking at him because i was curious what his bloodlines were, there aren’t a lot of WBs here of color besides Art Deco… he looked like a nice fellow, was a good mover in the video and seemed pretty honest. they were asking $10,000 obo which seemed a little high for my area, for an unpapered WB with no show history - especially a lesson horse, which tends to go for about ~$4500 here give or take… but he was a PALOMINO warmblood and generated a lot of interest.

it sure was interesting when someone who knew the horse (prior owners, apparently) were quick to point out the horse in question was actually a morgan.

fooled me (someone who is pretty familiar with morgans), and about the ~50 other people that commented on the sale post. and after that, the interest almost completely died off once his real breed was exposed - since 10k for a morgan is somewhat less tenable than 10k for a WB of the same resume/experience.

goes to show you how much weight is put in the perception of “quality” when something is assigned to it, like “warmblood” or “morgan”. the horse’s quality did not change, but the perception of it sure did.

i imagine he must have been bred from one of the better morgan breeding farms around here. he did not at all have the conformation i usually associate with morgans and didn’t have the flat open hocks or the morgan way of going… so i assume he must have been quite carefully bred for sport.

@halt, are you part of the Morgan Horses We Love group on Facebook? I feel like this is a valuable story in the context of breed (and half-Morgan) promotion.

[Imgliniel]

Hello all!

My apologies for disappearing for a bit. Life gets in the way every so often!

But anyway, some additional info.

He was bred by North Star Stables

https://www.facebook.com/northstarstables/

sire:

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/baptiste+newman+bluet

dam:

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/nss+press+your+luck

I know the pics I have are not exactly great. I have tried multiple times with multiple people to get good pictures of him. Unfortunately 1) its to cold out to bath him, 2) I don’t think he has ever seen clippers and he isn’t blanketed so its to cold to clip him too. 3) he’s a wiggly noodle of a curious 2 year old who doesn’t grasp the concept of STAND STILL!!! He would rather find out if the camera is food facepalm

[Imgliniel]

ok, got an odd error the first post round…

Oh well, Sorry for disappearing for a bit all! thank you for the input so far! I grabbed his papers.

He was bred by North Star Stables

https://www.facebook.com/northstarstables/

Sire:

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/baptiste+newman+bluet

Dam:

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/nss+press+your+luck

[MsM]

I am not familiar at all with current Morgan breeding. So from a semi-ignorant point of view: I dont recognize anything up close. I do know Red Correll is well thought of for using Morgans. Dam’s pedigree is interesting with a lot of breeding to In Command lines. Gives her a lot of Waseeka Nocturne farther back which my old Morgan had - gives refinement and a lovely head.

[Bay_Hair_Don_t_Care]

@lifeishorsesarelove

Are you me? Sheesh.

I’ve been helping a friend of mine a little bit (mainly photography) with her 2yo flashy coloured Morgan colt. She won’t geld him because she wants him and his half sibling as stud prospects if he doesn’t sell. Problem is I don’t think he will sell if she doesn’t geld him.

He’s tall, he moves super flashy, he’s super chill and personable, and everyone I show photos to without tell them he’s a Morgan think he’s some type of sport horse baby. But he’s not, and that’s killing his sales prospects. I ride hunters and I would love to have him, but she’s asking about $5k US and I think he’s worth maybe half that if she won’t chop his nuts off.

Morgan’s are a niche market in comparison to a QH or paint or TB or warmblood. People have this image of them as hot heads with need action for days. They aren’t all like that, but most people looking for a prospect are looking for either their preferred breed or something that will sell easily. Morgan’s don’t really fit that second category, and they aren’t the breed of choice for many.

When you have an ungelded 2yo you shrink the pool of potential buyers even further because most amateurs do not want a stud, and they don’t have anywhere to put it while they geld it and wait the 60 days out.

if you can convince them to geld him, do it! He’s not worth much of anything as a colt unless he is broke and has some type of record to prove he’s worth something.

Maybe this is a silly question, but since you think the colt is worth significantly less while intact, wouldn’t it be a bargain to buy him and have him castrated? Our vet is only charging $350 to castrate our colt, so I wouldn’t think a colt would be worth a whole lot less for NOT being castrated, since that leaves the opportunity for someone to buy him for stud reasons or otherwise. Is there a reason why people would prefer for a horse to be castrated before they buy him (aside from the cost of castration, of course)?

[soloudinhere]

@Bay Hair Don't Care

Maybe this is a silly question, but since you think the colt is worth significantly less while intact, wouldn’t it be a bargain to buy him and have him castrated? Our vet is only charging $350 to castrate our colt, so I wouldn’t think a colt would be worth a whole lot less for NOT being castrated, since that leaves the opportunity for someone to buy him for stud reasons or otherwise. Is there a reason why people would prefer for a horse to be castrated before they buy him (aside from the cost of castration, of course)?

If you board or have a limited facility at home, you can’t keep an intact colt (most boarding barns won’t allow it) and there is 60 days of healing involved. There’s tons of cheap horses who don’t have that restriction and are ready to go right now. Unless you happen to really, really want a palomino Morgan who can’t even be ridden for a year or more, there’s no reason to choose this one and have to deal with all that.

[Scribbler]

@Bay Hair Don't Care

Maybe this is a silly question, but since you think the colt is worth significantly less while intact, wouldn’t it be a bargain to buy him and have him castrated? Our vet is only charging $350 to castrate our colt, so I wouldn’t think a colt would be worth a whole lot less for NOT being castrated, since that leaves the opportunity for someone to buy him for stud reasons or otherwise. Is there a reason why people would prefer for a horse to be castrated before they buy him (aside from the cost of castration, of course)?

Well if the horse is worth under $1000 or under $500, there isn’t much wiggle room for lowering the price. And it is an operation and there is recovery time, and if he’s already 2, it’s true he may not be welcome in a boarding barn.

And I don’t actually know what regional variations in gelding costs are, but if you wanted or needed him to stay at the vet clinic for a few days for monitoring, that would add to cost as well.

[Bay_Hair_Don_t_Care]

Okay, thanks. I was just wondering!

[JWU98NC]

I was a breeder of Morgans for about 12 years and based on the pedigree, the mare has more desirable show lines because he is fairly heavy line bred ( not what I like ). The stud doesn’t have the high valued names I am familiar with, but they maybe lines from west coast vs east coast ( I am familiar with east coast ). That being said I would geld him because he doesn’t hold 100% quality from mare and sire. I think the colorful Morgans are great and nothing bad about them. Typically I would hold onto foals till year 3-4 and do some basic training on them… as babies just don’t sell well unless the sire and dam are highly sought after. Babies would typically sell for 1-2k with no training and a nice pedigree. What would also help increase the sale price is take him to some shows where you can get him exposed and do some in hand classes. With what you said about cost, all this may be hard to do, but it’s part of what a breeder of babies does and selling babies is just as hard! Maybe the next step would be to also reach out to there breeder! Maybe they might have some prospects for buyers and can help you sell him or point you in the right direction! They should have some interest, being the breeders. If they don’t, they shouldn’t be breeding. Best of luck!

[lifeishorsesarelove]

@Bay Hair Don't Care

Maybe this is a silly question, but since you think the colt is worth significantly less while intact, wouldn’t it be a bargain to buy him and have him castrated? Our vet is only charging $350 to castrate our colt, so I wouldn’t think a colt would be worth a whole lot less for NOT being castrated, since that leaves the opportunity for someone to buy him for stud reasons or otherwise. Is there a reason why people would prefer for a horse to be castrated before they buy him (aside from the cost of castration, of course)?

There’s the cost of boarding an intact colt at a facility set up for stallions before and immediately after ( he is gelded, for one.

There’s also the cost of the gelding and then the cost of potential complications if something goes awry (and while castration is a very common surgery, things do go wrong). My $400 castration on a 2yo last year turned into a $1500 castration (the same amount as what I had paid for him) and the pony on IV antibiotics for 2 weeks. That cost can go right up to outright losing the horse entirely.

There’s also the gamble of not knowing what an older colt (vs one gelded at a year) will behave like after gelding. “Brain surgery” can affect their personality a lot, or it might not. You could buy it and geld it and hope that makes it less of a bite-y jerk, and he may still be a bite-y jerk!

I will not buy an intact horse over the age of 18 months again and geld it. It isn’t worth the gamble to me.

[MsM]

Great idea to contact the breeders if they are still around.
If things become desperate, there are Morgan rescue groups who will take him in and find him a home.

[RHdobes563]

@lifeishorsesarelove

There’s the cost of boarding an intact colt at a facility set up for stallions before and immediately after ( he is gelded, for one.

There’s also the cost of the gelding and then the cost of potential complications if something goes awry (and while castration is a very common surgery, things do go wrong). My $400 castration on a 2yo last year turned into a $1500 castration (the same amount as what I had paid for him) and the pony on IV antibiotics for 2 weeks. That cost can go right up to outright losing the horse entirely.

There’s also the gamble of not knowing what an older colt (vs one gelded at a year) will behave like after gelding. “Brain surgery” can affect their personality a lot, or it might not. You could buy it and geld it and hope that makes it less of a bite-y jerk, and he may still be a bite-y jerk!

I will not buy an intact horse over the age of 18 months again and geld it. It isn’t worth the gamble to me.

I was lucky enough to buy a registered Morgan gelding at the age of 15 who had been a stallion until age 9. He had 7 offspring. He was an incredibly well-behaved and well-trained horse. I saw almost nothing of stallion like behavior. (Early on, in one group, he became “leader”, but the groups changed shortly thereafter, and so did his “position”.) I’m not sure if it was totally his personality or the training he had received as a stallion.

Of course, you can’t COUNT on that behavior even WITH early training, no matter the breed.