Honestly, some of you don’t think that the amount that the horse bleeds is important, and that that particular quality may be determined by genetics?
[QUOTE=On the Farm;5686557]
You’re wrong about it not being a problem in the past. In the 1908 edition of “The Veterinary Science,” a condition is described which mirrors what we today call EIPH. Other than observing bleeding from the nostrils, detection methods were primitive, just as were the treatments–a tablespoon of turpentine mixed with linseed oil and syringed down the horse’s throat.
Again, bleeding is not something as simple as “taking the horse home and turning it out.” It’s a potentially dangerous situation to the horse’s well being and I’m an advocate of doing whatever we can to prevent EIPH in the first place. If reducing fluid in a horse’s system helps prevent EIPH, would you advocate drawing a horse’s water and hay the night before, throw a half-dozen woollies on him overnight, and let the animal sweat it out; or would you rather let the horse have a good night, enjoy a normal morning, and get an affordable/predictable medication a few hours from post time that achieves the same end?[/QUOTE]
So your reasoning is that because we used to use leeches in the past to cure many ills, and trepining, that the use of a better method or better methodology would be superceded by a short cut solution with such drastic side effects. Why do you not answer the question about what happens when you flush all the available fluids in a horse’s body with a diuretic and then have it exert itself to the utmost. Is that too much to ask or think about? Just maybe if we asked the tougher questions we might get a qualitatively better solution. Although, if you are content that all is well with the throughbred industry and racing with it’s dope addled advocates, I waste my breath.
It is inconceiveable to me to think that the breeding and management of the horses, never mind the use of a diuretic (try it some time on yourself and then let’s talk after you have run a race in your “drawn down” state) have no effect on the abundance of horses (do the math on the numbers who run with Lasix) who run on this drug? You site one article from an old publication to prove that this is the best way to handle the problem? Do you think perhaps that since we sent a man to the moon, that we might, if we cared at all about the horse’s longterm health, just might be able to come up with something else. I have more faith in research than you do apparently. If we disagree on this basic matter that there is more harm than good in the standard use of a duretic than all the tea in China would not get you to look at a better way.
Do you honestly think that the diference in the cost of the medications is why a diuretic is used? Please don’t tell me your work is sports physiology or that you are a personal trainer.
It is only by advocating for change that a change will be found. Pacifism and apathy are a pathway to hell. I can only hope that the horses will find more who really want to think things through, for everyone’s sake.
I also would like to know why more upper level eventers do not bleed, and why all of those horses that start in a rigorous competition like eventing would never be allowed to run on Lasix even if they did. I am serious as a heart attack.lol. I think the Europeans and the Australians just see us as drug pushers quite honestly.
Calamber, please refrain from making statements on what I “believe” (take note of your ‘leeches’ comment.) State what you wish to state and I’ll state what I believe, but please don’t attribute to me comments or opinions that I neither made or don’t have. Comprende muchacho (a)?
My comment on “The Veterinary Science” was not to judge treatments, it was simply a response to an overtly ignorant comment on the history of EIPH. If we can find better preventions/treatments for EIPH, I’m all for it, however the anti-lasix advocates seem to offer nothing in that regard, just insulting rhetoric.
I’ve got the short answer (I think) on Eventers verses Racehorses…
First, I’m quite positive that there are 3 day horses that bleed, if it is escessive then they become something else. Plus the fact that the numbers of upper level horses is small compared to the number of horses running daily across North America (stats wise).
I also wonder how many of the Event horses (any level) do actually bleed some, but the riders don’t recognize the signs if they are not bleeding out the nose. Thus, never being scoped.
And yes, the cost to treat bleeders without using Lasix is expensive if you go the “natural” route.
As far as using Lasix on myself, been there done that, and not as bad as you think. As long as you put back in what you’ve taken out.
Someone on another board (I’ve long forgotten who it was) who spent years as an assistant trainer in England explained that the way European races are run may have a lot to do with why you don’t see as much bleeding there, even without Lasix.
The real running is only in the latter stages of the race, for the most part - they run much slower fractions in the first, say, 1-1/8 miles of a 12 furlong race. So the horse gets a nice long warmup instead of a full-on assault to its cardiopulmonary systems. Compare that to US racing, where the earlier fractions are usually quicker.
I’m not sure how much truth there is to that, but it does make sense,
This too Mara, alhough sometimes you will get a horse that bleeds during slow gallops, IMO they will not usually make it as racehorses.
Meh… how many times does a horse run a huge race/# and we scope and they have bled a 4 or 5? I think some of the time it is the gallop out. Like some people think horses are injured the most in works and races in the gallop out. (not always). Eight Belles ripped them off in the gallop out. Different styles of riders also seems to make a difference. I get on a filly that bleeds out both nostrils when a jock works her but doesn’t bleed a drop when I do. Bleeding is interesting. Some horses do, most do, but some do under different circumstances, riders, treatment, through treatment… whatever. Managing the individual horse is key.
I once had an Irish filly that had been to 6 different racetracks in two different continents at the age of three. It was clear she was bleeding in Europe. She came to the US and she was still bleeding (it looked like from her form). I got her and she was a nut. I got her happy, never let her out of a slow lope without lasix. She won 2 in a row for me and bled out both nostrils both times. She was claimed off the second win and never hit the board again.
Bleeding is different for EVERY horse. The reason, how tough they are regardless of the blood. BUT the one thing that always holds true is anatomy and physiology.
Just because Europe doesn’t use Lasix, doesn’t mean they don’t treat. There are a million and one herbs and concoctions that can be used that don’t test that deal with bleeders. You are silly if you think so, Calamber. We use the same herbs and “such” on bleeders in conjuntion to lasix and adjunct bleeder meds. It’s not rocket science
[QUOTE=Blinkers On;5690100]
Meh… how many times does a horse run a huge race/# and we scope and they have bled a 4 or 5? I think some of the time it is the gallop out. Like some people think horses are injured the most in works and races in the gallop out. (not always). Eight Belles ripped them off in the gallop out. Different styles of riders also seems to make a difference. I get on a filly that bleeds out both nostrils when a jock works her but doesn’t bleed a drop when I do. Bleeding is interesting. Some horses do, most do, but some do under different circumstances, riders, treatment, through treatment… whatever. Managing the individual horse is key.
I once had an Irish filly that had been to 6 different racetracks in two different continents at the age of three. It was clear she was bleeding in Europe. She came to the US and she was still bleeding (it looked like from her form). I got her and she was a nut. I got her happy, never let her out of a slow lope without lasix. She won 2 in a row for me and bled out both nostrils both times. She was claimed off the second win and never hit the board again.
Bleeding is different for EVERY horse. The reason, how tough they are regardless of the blood. BUT the one thing that always holds true is anatomy and physiology.
Just because Europe doesn’t use Lasix, doesn’t mean they don’t treat. There are a million and one herbs and concoctions that can be used that don’t test that deal with bleeders. You are silly if you think so, Calamber. We use the same herbs and “such” on bleeders in conjuntion to lasix and adjunct bleeder meds. It’s not rocket science[/QUOTE]
I have to agree on me being silly, but for an entirely different reason. I may be silly to persist in trying to find those who wish to collaborate on coming up with a different way, but I like that kind of silly and will continue whether it meets with public approval or not. If it is fine in your book to give lasix or any other concoction which treats this abnormality in a way which I think is physiologically harsh on the horse, and not in their best interests as far as a policy then there is nothing I could say to convince you as I have already said. Some people just like things the way they are, nothing I can do about that.
I do not have the solution (wish I did), but I do have some ideas and I am open to more ideas like those given regarding the short sighted, nee ignorant way that the horses’ are trained and I would also say bred. That to me is a useful and collaborative effort. I do not see all being well in la la land. I will not comment about your screen name I promise.
Amber, do your research HOW is it an abnormality?? It’s not and nor is just race horses that bleed.
Lasix is not psychologically had on a horse it actually calms. Yes the pee and loose water, but they are in no WAY psychologically “damaged” by the use of lasix… Jeepers…
You in all honesty have NO IDEA what you are talking about. Sorry and that IS fact.
Do you honestly think that no one has ever or IS endevering to help with a better way to treat/prevent EIPH… Again, do some research… Enlighten yourself.
BO, I said “physiologically”, not “psychologically”. You clearly are not endeavoring to help, you are hysterically insisting that it is as good as it gets and no problems. Try to read what you are saying, although that last statement was pretty hard to decipher. Physician, heal thyself.
[QUOTE=On the Farm;5687070]
Calamber, please refrain from making statements on what I “believe” (take note of your ‘leeches’ comment.) State what you wish to state and I’ll state what I believe, but please don’t attribute to me comments or opinions that I neither made or don’t have. Comprende muchacho (a)?
My comment on “The Veterinary Science” was not to judge treatments, it was simply a response to an overtly ignorant comment on the history of EIPH. If we can find better preventions/treatments for EIPH, I’m all for it, however the anti-lasix advocates seem to offer nothing in that regard, just insulting rhetoric.[/QUOTE]
It was a metaphor, not a statement as to your beliefs.
Yes, Amber, I am hysterical… AGAIN please do some research it will broaden your narrow mind
[QUOTE=Calamber;5698931]
BO, I said “physiologically”, not “psychologically”. You clearly are not endeavoring to help, you are hysterically insisting that it is as good as it gets and no problems. Try to read what you are saying, although that last statement was pretty hard to decipher. Physician, heal thyself.[/QUOTE]
Um No… Can you read…??? EVERYONE involved in Equine Vet MEd is trying to find a way to fix, help, prevent, manage and treat… again, do some research…it is enlightening… even for a mind like yours
