I found this fascinating- largely because the Europeans. and nw South Africans, are so much more proactive about health issues, as well as welfare issues, in the Thoroughbreds that race there.
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/63571/study-eiph-is-an-inherited-trait
Doncha just wonder who those families are…:lol:
Yes, I saw that and was absolutely wondering what lines they were.
I read it, I while I feel its helpful, and not surprising to me that it is hereditary. It really slams the use of anti bleeding medication also. However, if you don’t know who to avoid using how are you supposed to clean up the gene pool, just by a wild guess?
Darwin rules
Well, what do you expect? If you don’t select against bleeders, bleeders enter the gene pool. Of course, the same goes for any meds that cover a genetic weakness, including NSAIDS.
I bred a bleeder to a bleeder and expect to get a bleeder. They all bleed. ALL. QH, Arabs, morgans CC horses, cutting horses… you name it, they bleed. We treat it, try to prevent it and manage it as best we can. SA and Europe send us their bleeders… they can’t run on medication. So they dispose of their “junk” to us.
People seem to think that it is smiply a stress thing when it is really a physiological response. And though stress does play a role so to anatomy and physiology.
No matter who you breed to isn’t going to change anatomy and physiology. It’s not going to change what happens inside of a horse when moving.
I bred a bleeder to a bleeder and expect to get a bleeder. They all bleed. ALL. QH, Arabs, morgans CC horses, cutting horses… you name it, they bleed. We treat it, try to prevent it and manage it as best we can. SA and Europe send us their bleeders… they can’t run on medication. So they dispose of their “junk” to us.
Then how do the Europeans run horses without Lasix successfully?
They don’t scope? And those they do come to the US?? Just a guess…
There are a great many ways to manage bleeders. Herbs (as simple as sheherd’s purse), adjunct bleeder meds. whatever… When those fail they end up here. Because we can treat/manage the issue successfully. The remaining issue is that all horses funtion the same internally and thus they bleed. Physiology dictates Do your research.
[QUOTE=FairWeather;5684527]
Then how do the Europeans run horses without Lasix successfully?[/QUOTE]
Maybe you should ask the European trainers what they give. Just because the Europeans don’t give lasix doesn’t mean that their horses don’t bleed and ours in the US do because we use lasix.
My question is whether we want to endanger a horse’s well being (and even its life) by banning a proven (and affordable) medication for preventive purposes.
Agree
[QUOTE=On the Farm;5684556]
Maybe you should ask the European trainers what they give. Just because the Europeans don’t give lasix doesn’t mean that their horses don’t bleed and ours in the US do because we use lasix.
My question is whether we want to endanger a horse’s well being (and even its life) by banning a proven (and affordable) medication for preventive purposes.[/QUOTE]
I couldn’t agree more. I would hate to see a return to the days of drawing horses by non-drug means.
[QUOTE=On the Farm;5684556]
Maybe you should ask the European trainers what they give. Just because the Europeans don’t give lasix doesn’t mean that their horses don’t bleed and ours in the US do because we use lasix.
My question is whether we want to endanger a horse’s well being (and even its life) by banning a proven (and affordable) medication for preventive purposes.[/QUOTE]
This whole discussion is so bizarre. Do you think we are saving horses lives by routinely treating with Lasix? How on earth did we manage before the advent of Lasix? Are you saying that horses were dying because they bled without the use of Lasix? If so, where is the proof of that? Lasix is a diuretic by the way and has all of the aftereffects of a diuretic, such as flushing all fluids, leaving a critical shortage of electolytes, instabilities which lead to heart attacks, and all manners of nutritional imbalances which can cause tissue, tendon, muscular and ligament weaknesses. It probably is not a good idea to just blanket ban the use since it has been used as such a crutch, but to think that horses bleed enough to choke their breathing due to physical exertion is just ludicrous. There are other reasons and no harm investigating whether the biological predisposition is genetic. Even if it proves not to be, there is something wrong with using a diuretic everytime before the exertion of racing as a pro forma method. Just so bizarre to me this way of thinking.
It was a genuine question. I don’t know very much about European racing.
How many horses do you think start out their careers in Europe then end up in the US?
Why don’t upper level eventers bleed more often?
Genuine questions.
[QUOTE=Calamber;5684683]
This whole discussion is so bizarre. Do you think we are saving horses lives by routinely treating with Lasix? How on earth did we manage before the advent of Lasix? Are you saying that horses were dying because they bled without the use of Lasix? If so, where is the proof of that? Lasix is a diuretic by the way and has all of the aftereffects of a diuretic, such as flushing all fluids, leaving a critical shortage of electolytes, instabilities which lead to heart attacks, and all manners of nutritional imbalances which can cause tissue, tendon, muscular and ligament weaknesses. It probably is not a good idea to just blanket ban the use since it has been used as such a crutch, but to think that horses bleed enough to choke their breathing due to physical exertion is just ludicrous. There are other reasons and no harm investigating whether the biological predisposition is genetic. Even if it proves not to be, there is something wrong with using a diuretic everytime before the exertion of racing as a pro forma method. Just so bizarre to me this way of thinking.[/QUOTE]
A horse does not have to “choke to death” on it’s blood to be killed by EIPH. How does one treat an episode of bleeding, whether it’s overtly noticeable or not? You give the horse antibiotics, because blood in the lungs can cause an infection, eventually abcess, probably advance to pneumonia, and can put a horse in the ground just as easily as a heart attack. That’s a realistic circumstance and I’m just amazed that opponents of lasix ignore the aftereffects of a bleeding episode.
[QUOTE=On the Farm;5685148]
A horse does not have to “choke to death” on it’s blood to be killed by EIPH. How does one treat an episode of bleeding, whether it’s overtly noticeable or not? You give the horse antibiotics, because blood in the lungs can cause an infection, eventually abcess, probably advance to pneumonia, and can put a horse in the ground just as easily as a heart attack. That’s a realistic circumstance and I’m just amazed that opponents of lasix ignore the aftereffects of a bleeding episode.[/QUOTE]
And why do they bleed, because they are born to bleed? You failed to answer the historical question though. This was not a problem in the past, and not because we did not have airway scopes. If the horse could not run, for whatever reason, they did not paste up the feet with bondo, cut the throat or stuff them with a diuretic. They were sent home to rest, recuperate on green grass, and maybe tried again. If not, they did not become a racehorse.
The only way to know if a horse bled or not is to scope them, period. Horses have bled since the beginning of racing and people did some nasty crap to them to attempt to prevent it. Of all the ills in the world I would put a shot of lasix every few weeks so far down on the list that it would take several lifetimes to get to it.
Calamber, do you know anatomy and physiology and WHY horses bleed?? Do your research. They bleed. We manage it and try to prevent it… We CANNOT change the physilological effects of exercise.
Horses with “issues” do become race horses. We can mangage it all.
[QUOTE=ASB Stars;5683513]
I found this fascinating- largely because the Europeans. and nw South Africans, are so much more proactive about health issues, as well as welfare issues, in the Thoroughbreds that race there.
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/63571/study-eiph-is-an-inherited-trait
Doncha just wonder who those families are…:lol:[/QUOTE]
One of the prominent factors in the inherited aspect of bleeding is heart size. I was lucky enough to work for a group that scans hearts at sales and I learned a lot from them. Horses that have small hearts or decent sized hearts with thin walls have a hard time pumping blood throughout the body and especially the lungs.
There are a lot of horses out there with limited distance
capabilities due to heart size.
Lasix makes it so that many horses inferior hearts can race and some can be quite successful. But we have retired too many sires and mares to the breeding shed who bled.
[QUOTE=Blinkers On;5685730]
Calamber, do you know anatomy and physiology and WHY horses bleed?? Do your research. They bleed. We manage it and try to prevent it… We CANNOT change the physilological effects of exercise.
Horses with “issues” do become race horses. We can mangage it all.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I am aware why they bleed, thin tissues, inadequate cellular strength, perhaps the wrong management, poor bloodlines. Should I go on? You are just wrong about this, sorry to pop the bubble but we are breeding inferior horses on many levels and of course, being the drug addled country that we have become, that is the go to solution.
For someone who would like to call themselves a horseman or woman there is a requirement that one has a better understanding of life sciences and less dilletantism. Many are more than a little disoriented about the use of a diuretic as a performance management “tool”. If you are so keen on physiology, why don’t you run the blood/tissue parameters on your horse after utilizing Lasix, and no, I don’t mean just the standard bullshit procedures done to determine whether a horse is hydrated or not. Tissue samples, vitamin and mineral disurbances and then tell me how that enhances a growing horse’s (or really any horse) muscular strenth, tissue stability and strength, never mind the heart problems that come with the imbalances caused by electrolyte deficits and the complement of amino acid and subsequent endocrine disorders that can be caused by this. Ever wonder why so many TBs do so well on the use of Thyro-L and why? Tell me about (and it is called) ‘physiology’, in depth, if you are so well versed, please.
Very interesting Chicken Legs, unbelieveable that this type of information is not disseminated to more horsemen and women who actually do want to know, that is, those who are not hell bent for leather to defend poor and disastrous practices.
[QUOTE=Calamber;5685346]
And why do they bleed, because they are born to bleed? You failed to answer the historical question though. This was not a problem in the past, and not because we did not have airway scopes. If the horse could not run, for whatever reason, they did not paste up the feet with bondo, cut the throat or stuff them with a diuretic. They were sent home to rest, recuperate on green grass, and maybe tried again. If not, they did not become a racehorse.[/QUOTE]
You’re wrong about it not being a problem in the past. In the 1908 edition of “The Veterinary Science,” a condition is described which mirrors what we today call EIPH. Other than observing bleeding from the nostrils, detection methods were primitive, just as were the treatments–a tablespoon of turpentine mixed with linseed oil and syringed down the horse’s throat.
Again, bleeding is not something as simple as “taking the horse home and turning it out.” It’s a potentially dangerous situation to the horse’s well being and I’m an advocate of doing whatever we can to prevent EIPH in the first place. If reducing fluid in a horse’s system helps prevent EIPH, would you advocate drawing a horse’s water and hay the night before, throw a half-dozen woollies on him overnight, and let the animal sweat it out; or would you rather let the horse have a good night, enjoy a normal morning, and get an affordable/predictable medication a few hours from post time that achieves the same end?
[QUOTE=FairWeather;5684788]
It was a genuine question. I don’t know very much about European racing.
How many horses do you think start out their careers in Europe then end up in the US?
Why don’t upper level eventers bleed more often?
Genuine questions.[/QUOTE]
Other than having a former employee who worked in England talk about giving horses supplements to combat EIPH, I don’t know that much either. I think that’s one thing that has been lost in this general argument–how do other jurisdictions deal with the condition?
Trainer and lasix advocate Rick Violette did make the statement that he could use a variety of supplements and other meds to combat EIPH, but they would cost an owner about $200 as opposed to the $20-$25 that lasix costs (and $5 dollars of that charge is for the vet to fill out paperwork for the stewards.
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