Anyone feed raw goat's milk?

[pony_baloney]

I’ve been feeding my elderly rescue dog a commercial raw frozen food (Steve’s Real Food) since I got her in April. She’s adjusted really well except she has a diarrhea episode every week to ten days or so. Only in the morning, won’t eat, looks and acts pathetic, then she’s fine later. Doesn’t matter what protein she’s fed. I’ve kept track of weather changes, anything that could be different but there doesn’t seem to be an obvious reason for it. Tried canned pumpkin, digestive enzymes, probiotics—same thing.

Store recommended raw goat’s milk so I read up on it and it’s pretty amazing stuff. Just wondering if anyone else uses it. So far dog is doing well after one week and may be gaining some weight (she’s a very lean 6 lbs. and could use it). Will continue and keep paws crossed.

[csaper58]

The fact that it happens on a fairly regular schedule is interesting. I would check…

1. the age/expiration date of the food?

2. did the food thaw/partially thaw at home, in the car, or at the point of purchase?

3. Are you washing the food dish in hot soapy water after meals?

4.Did you take a sample of the poop to the vet for analysis?

5 Could the dog be having a ‘dietary indiscretion’? Like eating cat poop on her evening walk, or does someone share a novel food item on those occasions?

6. What parasite control is the dog on?

7. Probiotics may help

Have you considered keeping a food journal for your dog?

[pony_baloney]

I’ve already considered all the things you listed, and nothing ever changes. The food is frozen, defrosted the same way (in fridge) every day, fed at the same times. She gets the same treats daily, doesn’t get into anything she shouldn’t. If it’s from something I’m doing, I’d think she’d be sick a lot more often. Luckily my vet is pro-raw and I’m not making the food myself, but I haven’t taken her there yet because it’s not a huge issue; if it happened more often, I’d be concerned, or if she was vomiting as well. I’ve temporarily stopped her joint supplement and even her toothpaste and it made no difference.

She’s actually overdue for an episode since starting the milk. She may have had similar issues with her previous owner, IDK. Her last off day was just a gurgling tummy and NQR behavior, but no diarrhea. Her stool was smellier than usual but not loose.

I was told by the Answers rep (goat milk) that she’d be OK just having the milk on days she didn’t feel well—it’s that complete, like an egg.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=pony baloney;8933184]
I was told by the Answers rep (goat milk) that she’d be OK just having the milk on days she didn’t feel well—it’s that complete, like an egg.[/QUOTE]

I don’t really understand. What is the purpose of the goat’s milk? I know some people use it as a probiotic (if fermented). If you’re only feeding it when the dog is ill, I’m not sure what the point is. If you are going to feed it as a probiotic, I would feed it every day.

Are you tracking her episodes on a calendar? And when she has them, how are you treating them?

Any special reason you are feeding raw (because of her issues, or just because?)

Do you know anything about her history? Just wondering what she ate before she came to you.

[Bluey]

Assuming the vet has really checked the dog out and found nothing, no internal parasites, some deficiency or infection and agrees that raw feeding management is ok, I know ours is not ok with raw feeding, he gets to treat plenty of dogs with problems from it, the first I would try is to feed normal, cooked food and see what happens.

It is ok to feed following fads when you have a dog it agrees with.
If what we feed is out there, against common sense and something is not agreeing with the dog, duh, try changing to standard management and see what happens.

Not every dog is going to do ok with raw and that may just be part of the problem, at least worth trying to see if it is.

To add one more possible source of contamination like raw goat’s milk to the already not working quite right digestive system of the dog is not the first I would try to see what happens.

We had a goat dairy, sold to people their MD had told to drink goat’s milk and, as was customary then, everyone knew you boil milk if it was not processed.
No one would think to drink milk raw, like playing Russian roulette.
Milk is a great petri dish medium to grow any kind of uglies out there, very fast, why take chances?

Remember, first, do no harm, is what we should abide by, lets be sensible and try first the simplest, common sense changes to help the dog, then go from there.

[S1969]

I’m not sure dogs are as affected by potential contamination as humans are. They are, after all, designed to eat anything they can find, live animals and dead ones, brains, guts and all.

But, uncontaminated goat’s milk is no magical substance. It’s just milk. Fermented goats milk or kefir would serve as a probiotic, though.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=S1969;8933344]
I’m not sure dogs are as affected by potential contamination as humans are. They are, after all, designed to eat anything they can find, live animals and dead ones, brains, guts and all.

But, uncontaminated goat’s milk is no magical substance. It’s just milk. Fermented goats milk or kefir would serve as a probiotic, though.[/QUOTE]

Right, so many indiscretions in dogs end up in what our vet calls “garbage gut”, but dogs generally just get over it and are fine.

Then, the same action of having their mouth into so much that is less than clean should help this dog get all the probiotics it needs, just as it may be getting something it doesn’t?

All I wanted to say is, as I am sure the OP has heard it before, there are questions that need to be taken seriously about things like how we feed our animals and ourselves and those need to be examined again and again, as we learn more and then do what works best for everyone.

IF there is a question, as there is now, that needs to be considered, again, I am sure the OP already does, but others reading may not have.

[Luseride]

I had an older dog that was losing weight so every time I would milk our goats I would give him a little. Put the weight right on him. I liked it because it was so fresh. When I made cheese I would give him the whey, that he really loved. Not a lot but a couple of cups every few days.

[Dutchmare433]

There’s a lot of risk to feeding raw milk of any kind. (My grad research was about food borne bacteria ((all variety of E. coli, Salmonella spp., Listeria, Staph and a bunch more less common ones)) in dairy, raw and pasteurized.) It really is like Russian roulette, in that, the longer you play, the greater the chance you lose.

What is it about the goats’ milk that is appealing to you? I would think that pasteurized goats’ milk plus a good dose of probiotics (either in pill form or from certain yogurts or Kefir), would be what I’d want to do for a dog with tummy upset. Or just the probiotics.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Dutchmare433;8933387]
There’s a lot of risk to feeding raw milk of any kind. (My grad research was about food borne bacteria ((all variety of E. coli, Salmonella spp., Listeria, Staph and a bunch more less common ones)) in dairy, raw and pasteurized.) It really is like Russian roulette, in that, the longer you play, the greater the chance you lose. [/QUOTE]

Yes, but dogs lick their own rectums. Don’t you think they are already exposed to e. coli on a regular basis?

I have no issue, really, with raw milk for animals or humans. I’m just not sure what magical properties raw goat milk has for dogs unless it is cultured.

[Bluey]

“Elderly rescue dog” that already has some problem doesn’t sound like a dog you would want to experiment too much with, take chances it has a fully functioning immune system.

[CrazyGuineaPigLady]

I’ve been feeding raw to my cats and dogs for 6 years now. I credit it as extending and improving the quality of life of my in-very-poor-shape senior rescue cat by at least a year. The only time I’ve had an issue is when they get too much organ/too little bone or I’m in a pinch and buy one with vegetables. I follow the 80% meat, 10% bone, 5% liver and 5% “other organ” rule as much as possible.

In looking at the ingredients of Steve’s Barf Diet, I don’t like that broccoli is so far up the list, and there are a lot of extras in the Prey Diet that could be causing a problem. As a comparison, this is a sampling of what I normally rotate throughout the month, with some canned or soaked kibble thrown in a few times each week.
https://hare-today.com/product/raw_pet_food/ground_beeforganstripebone_1_lb_fine_ground

https://hare-today.com/product/raw_pet_food/ground_goatbonestripeorgans_1_lb_fine_ground

https://hare-today.com/product/raw_pet_food/ground_muttonbonesorgans_1_lb_fine_ground

https://hare-today.com/product/raw_pet_food/whole_carcass_ground_rabbit_fur_and_all_1_lb_fine_ground

Occasionally I use Bravo beef or lamb (the dog does not tolerate poultry) but I don’t find it to be as fresh and the animals just don’t seem to do as well on it.
http://www.bravopetfoods.com/dog_frozen_balance_beef.html

You might want to try a straight raw diet to see if that helps. Depending on the size of the dog, Franken-prey is not that hard to figure out and they can go a while without the ratio being exactly correct. I’ve pretty much stuck with Hare Today, or gone back to it, all this time because I like the options, the full disclosure and love the customer service.

[xcjumper]

I agree with everything CrazyGuinea said. I feed primarily prey raw to my dogs. I didn’t like all the ingredients listed in the Steve’s diet. They don’t need all the veggies and supplements. There are many convenient products far superior to Steve’s if you don’t want to do full on raw. Stella and Chewy’s is an awesome product!

I have used the Answers goat milk and like it. I use it if I’m adding something that my dogs haven’t had before and I worry may upset their tummy. It’s just kinda pricey.

[pony_baloney]

Thanks for all the replies. The raw goats milk is fermented; she’s been taking probiotics and has had Prozyme in the past. Years ago, when I made my own BARF diet for my previous dog, I included vegetables with RMBs, which is why having it in the Steve’s didn’t bother me. My current dog was so picky when I got her that I stuck with Steve’s because it was the first food she went crazy over. It’s also pretty simple without a lot of ingredients. And more affordable.

She is 10-11 years old and only 6 lbs. At the rescue she was very picky and would only eat a canned chicken flavor by Nutro. They never mentioned any digestive issues, but also never noticed she had an ear infection and was completely deaf.

She did have another episode this morning, but now is acting fine, looking for food. xcjumper, what makes Stella & Chewys a better food?

I’ll call my vet and see what she suggests. She was tested for parasites at her first visit but that probably didn’t cover giardia, clostridium, etc.

[Dutchmare433]

[QUOTE=S1969;8933429]
Yes, but dogs lick their own rectums. Don’t you think they are already exposed to e. coli on a regular basis?

I have no issue, really, with raw milk for animals or humans. I’m just not sure what magical properties raw goat milk has for dogs unless it is cultured.[/QUOTE]

Sure, they’re exposing themselves to their own microflora, which does include non-pathogenic E. coli. When we tested goats’s milk, we found a variety of pathogenic and/or drug resistant strains of the bacteria listed above. And even if your dog lives on a farm and is exposed to these pathogens, milk happens to be an excellent enrichment medium. So while your dog may be fine to go lick a goat and accidentally ingest 3 cells of pathogenic E. coli, it’s not fine when said E. coli has nutrient rich medium in which to rapidly grow. We’re talking the difference between a number of cells you can count on your hands to billions within a few hours.

I clearly feel very strongly about consuming raw milk, as in I think it’s dumb, lots of risk with only perceived benefits (pasteurization doesn’t kill proteins or whatever they’re saying it does now). I’m more than fine with consuming raw milk cheeses or any other fermented raw milk products. So you’re more than welcome to take or leave my opinion, though as a food microbiologist by training, I do have some insight into both sides of the issue.

ETA: Just read that the milk you’re feeding is fermented, so from a microbiological standpoint, I’d feel comfortable enough drinking it myself that I’d feel fine giving it to the dog.

[Beethoven]

I’d bet if you stopped feeding raw food then your dog would no longer have diarrhea. Dogs can and do get salmonella, ecoli etc from raw meat. I understand if you don’t want to feed a commercial traditional dog food, but you could cook it. Feeding raw anything does not benefit anyone.

I’ve done fecals on dogs eating raw diets when they were all coming in with bloody diarrhea. It was due protozoans in the meat. It was the orijen freeze dried raw meat that they were all eating at the time.

[pony_baloney]

My fear is that it IS the raw causing this, even though I believe this is the most appropriate diet for a dog. I just wonder why it doesn’t happen daily, if she’s eating the same things all the time.

When I finish the bag of Steve’s I may switch to Vital Essentials (prey-model based–no veg) if vet visit doesn’t find anything. If not, I’ll go back to Fromm or another high quality canned food.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=pony baloney;8934264]
My fear is that it IS the raw causing this, even though I believe this is the most appropriate diet for a dog. I just wonder why it doesn’t happen daily, if she’s eating the same things all the time.

When I finish the bag of Steve’s I may switch to Vital Essentials (prey-model based–no veg) if vet visit doesn’t find anything. If not, I’ll go back to Fromm or another high quality canned food.[/QUOTE]

Of that’s your fear, don’t feed raw. Really, there are many “good enough” or “very good” ways to feed a dog - and you should feed what works for them. Quality of life is important too. If your dogs’ GI system is upset enough for her to look pathetic or refuse food, that’s significant. (As opposed to a dog who may have loose stool but still feel and act normally.)

I don’t eat a 5 star diet either; but I try to eat one that is “very good” or “good enough.” Perfection is hard.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Dutchmare433;8934091]
Sure, they’re exposing themselves to their own microflora, which does include non-pathogenic E. coli. When we tested goats’s milk, we found a variety of pathogenic and/or drug resistant strains of the bacteria listed above. And even if your dog lives on a farm and is exposed to these pathogens, milk happens to be an excellent enrichment medium. So while your dog may be fine to go lick a goat and accidentally ingest 3 cells of pathogenic E. coli, it’s not fine when said E. coli has nutrient rich medium in which to rapidly grow. We’re talking the difference between a number of cells you can count on your hands to billions within a few hours. [/QUOTE]

I don’t disagree with you; but was more thinking that a dog/wolf/coyote in the wild has to be designed to have a much more resilient GI tract than ours. Yes they groom themselves, but they also eat deer poop, dead animals, and live animals including their intestines, etc. I’m sure they do suffer from occasional GI distress from a variety of pathogens, but I think it would be hard to avoid so I would have to imagine nature designed them to be more resistant.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=S1969;8934478]
I don’t disagree with you; but was more thinking that a dog/wolf/coyote in the wild has to be designed to have a much more resilient GI tract than ours. Yes they groom themselves, but they also eat deer poop, dead animals, and live animals including their intestines, etc. I’m sure they do suffer from occasional GI distress from a variety of pathogens, but I think it would be hard to avoid so I would have to imagine nature designed them to be more resistant.[/QUOTE]

“Old” doesn’t seem to be a trait evolution aims for.
In fact, for many/most species, much of the young doesn’t survive to adult.

Humans have beaten those odds and so have the animals we care for that we want to have long lives, but is not generally what you find in nature.