Anyone Gone Through a Permitting Battle for an Indoor Arena?

Clearspan

[QUOTE=TrotTrotPumpkn;8835217]
In my county a coverall-type building is a permanent structure and if anything is bigger than 10x10 you need a permit and can expect your property tax to go up.

I agree with going to visit with the zoning/planning office to start with. That said, I have had two different answers on setbacks for my property by talking to two different people there! Get info in writing.[/QUOTE]

In many cases they are not classified as a permanent structure…that makes a huge tax differenve

I get an architect, they tend to have an established network within the county building department, because sometimes you get things, even in writing and your writer retires and the next person interprets things differently. Happened to us with our house. In your area the land use attorney may be the way to go, but in any case take a few days to read and re-read the county paperwork so that you understand it to the extent you are able.
Talking to us is good, but you need to speak to other people in your county in Kansas and understand how it really gets done there.

PS I am on our Town’s Planning Board, and I would just add that if you expect a battle, you will probably get one. If you go in friendly and cooperative, that’s usually how the board will be. They tend to reflect back whatever you are putting out. (This is true generally in life, I’ve found).

One potential problem with just going to the zoning office is that you don’t want to be told “no” which is a risk you run.

An example of what I mean is that years ago we thought of putting an apartment above our garage. I went in saying it was for guests. That was not allowed. However, if it was built for employees, eg a nanny, that WAS allowed. That’s why I suggest a lawyer if things aren’t cut and dried.

In my county, getting an attorney involved is absolutely necessary even though the regulations are fairly well-written. Just very difficult to deal with. One county over, it’s way more ag friendly as far as building goes, so not as big of a deal. So, it depends.

[QUOTE=clanter;8834347]
that may be eave height max not ridge line height

nevertheless a coverall would be considered a temporary “tent” structure in my area …[/QUOTE]

Yes, you have to get definitions because they vary. When I last asked, the height was defined as midway between the eave and the top of the roof. Weird. And from the finished grade. Find out if height is measured from the highest finished grade. So if height is an issue and you have a slight slope, you could have one edge of the arena below grade if that worked out for you. Of course, there are costs associated with that too.

I now work for an architectural/engineering/planning firm whose co-founder has a reputation as THE one to get a project through the zoning and planning commission.

While city planners cannot make recommendations, look at the minutes of the past zoning and planning committees, and see who has been representing the developers/homeowners on recently passed/approved projects. Depending how much development is going on in your area, there may one recurring name, or a few. Search the big-money areas nearby for the same thing - it’s one thing to get a project approved by your average village board. It’s quite another to get it approved by a very wealthy community’s zoning board.

The top planners frequently work with the best engineers, etc. and will cover contingencies you (and sometimes even the zoning board) aren’t aware of.

Google Barrington Hills, IL to see what I mean. 9 years and counting . . . :rolleyes:

I called the P&Z Dept. this morning, but went straight to voice mail. Left a message, no return call.

I think it makes sense to go ask some questions and go from there. I have downloaded the pdf of the regs, but … well, you know.

I just gave the regs another thorough review and I think I have my questions. It appears to me that my lot is a non-conforming lot in the Ag district – which apparently means that all of the Ag Regs still apply to my lot and all Ag Uses are still permitted, even though it’s non-conforming. This is a question to ask and get clarification.

I revised my arena plans to come in under the 35-ft. height restriction, whether it applies to me or not is still unclear (to me); but I can do away with that objection.

The required setback from the property line appears to me to be 10 feet; if so, I am good on that requirement, too.

So, I think my questions are:

Is the riding arena for personal use a permitted use? (looks like it to me – in fact, it looks like a commercial stable is a permitted use, which is a question to ask just for reference)

Is the Clearspan building considered permanent or temporary – and how will that affect my taxes?

Is the 10-foot setback accurate?

What else do I need to be asking?

FYI – I am only doing an open-air cover, by that I mean no side or end walls. I don’t ride when it gets bitter cold, not even in at the boarding barn facility. My primary needs are for shade and protection from the rain. So, for the cost savings, I’m planning on a “pavilion” style cover only.

Yes and for God’s sake dont call it an ARENA. BARN, that is what you call it. When the county folks here saw the word arena they immediately started objecting and asking about crowd control, multiple bathrooms, extra turn lanes etc. I had a horrible time trying to explain that it was CALLED an arena that only one person and horse would be in there.

KR- a lot of the questions you have about a Clearspan building could be answered by the owner of the farm where you took the grand daughters for Pony Club meetings in Hillsdale. She has one and I know of a few others in the county. In fact, the City Public Works and County Sanitation Dept have partial Clearspan type buildings.

Good luck with the expansion and project!!

SLW – I have spoken to her, but her situation is a little different from mine; and to be honest, she was pretty tight-lipped about it with me (maybe just because she doesn’t know me that well and does NOT want any trouble, completely understandable!).

I will keep you updated on what I find out!

I looked closely at buying a Clearspan. Had several discussions with the company. Gave them the size I wanted 100x200. Both ends open because I would save money doing that myself.

I was a bit shocked at the price I was quoted. I just assumed they would be substantial savings over a traditional wood framed. I got a quote on a 90X100 pole framed and it was around $25,000 less. FYI, off the shelf roof trusses can be had in 90’ widths now. Adding an additional 10’ makes them a special order and adds $$$$.

I talked checked with 2 banks about financing. Because these types of structures are not considered “permanent” structures and add little to no overall value to the property. It would have required a substantial down payment. Which is probably why the company offers financing.

My farm is my business and an investment. Any high dollar capital improvements have to add resale value. Especially with horse farms because most future buyers don’t value certain types of infrastructure as an asset. More like a liability.

The plus side to a Clearspan is the fact is is relatively easy to take down and sell. Though the cost of site prep and footing can’t be regrouped.

In my neck of the woods Clearspans are considered temporary structures so they do not raise one’s property tax.

I know a few people who have them. There are pluses and there are drawbacks. Especially in areas that get snow. Sliding snow and horses don’t mix well. Heavy rain makes for interesting noise issues also.

If the “roof” should develop a tear it is not cheap nor easy to repair. Unlike a shingled or metal roof.

Because of their size and visibility they are not everyone’s cup of tea. Which could cause an uproar with neighbors in the area. They are kind of “in your face” and stick out like a sore thumb.

But there is no denying they are really nice to ride in. Wonderful light, big and airy.

My township is very Ag friendly. But a few miles east of me in the heavy horse-centric Unionville area townships there are a lot of land use rules and regs. Indoors of any type can be very difficult to get permitted. For 2 reasons; the size, scope and the visual impact. Like a lot of places these days the NIMBY effect rules. The other major hurdle is water run off, because of the size of their foot print. A lot of area zoning dictates the square footage of impermeable ground allowed.

If the structure exceeds this, one has to apply for a variance. To get this a “runoff water” engineer will need to be hired. A Storm-water Runoff Mitigation plan may need to be submitted. The cost of this plan and installation may add significant costs.

Seems to be given the cost of a Clearspan I would ask them to call/contact all of the necessary gate keepers for the OP. They will/should be in able to ask and answer all of the necessary questions correctly to help and or make the permitting process as painless as possible. It is in their best interest also. They can leave the OP’s name out the equation to start with.

As to the process of directly dealing with the “gate keeps” there has been some good advise already offered up. Having lived and owned property in Historic overlay districts and gone through the a site plan review process when developing a property in the foothills outside of Boulder Co I will back up what others have said. Things can and do hinge on how things are "named’ and or the intended use.

If you live in an area that gives neighbors a lot of say in the review process. It might be best before you spend a dime on anything else to go around and visit with your neighbors showing them what you plan to build and get their feed back. Take a “poll” to make sure you have more on your side than against you. So when it comes time for public comments which usually holds a lot of weight on the decision you know you will have the deck stacked in your favor. If not you may have no chance without spending a ton of money on a land use attorney with no guarantees.

IMO and experience the above can be one of the most important inexpensive things you can do. Getting a bunch of your “friendly neighbors” to show up at the public comment meeting to rally for you is a big plus. But make sure they are people that have a “direct” say. Don’t make the mistake of stacking the deck with friends outside the “neighborhood”. This can go against you.

Obviously all or part of the above may or may not apply. Every area can have different rules and regs.

If the OP lives in a highly regulated area it may be best to hire an attorney who knows the drill as others have suggested.

Good luck!

Gumtree – thank you for such thorough insight!

I agree the pricing for the Clearspan structure is similar to (if not more than) a regular building. This is why it will be important to find out how my county views it – as temporary or permanent. If it will be viewed as permanent, then I lose one of the major benefits and makes it even more prudent to review other options.

There are a few reasons when I am willing to pay more for the Clearspan structure, if all of these benefits hold true for me in my situation:

  1. Property taxes – if County considers it temporary, I will save on property taxes.
  2. Light and airy – I really do like riding in the fabric structure, far more than a traditional building.
  3. It actually is temporary – I can see a situation where I might sell this farm and buy something closer to the metro area, in a more commerce-friendly zone. The building can be moved and re-installed for around $25,000 – which is significantly less than anything I could build from scratch.

It does have a 50-year warranty on the truss structure and a 20-year warranty on the cover. And, of course, it will be insured.

Nonetheless – if the county is going to classify and tax it as permanent, then it only makes sense to explore other options.

Regarding neighbors – the people who will have the closest view are horsey, and we are friendly. We share a fenceline. I suspect an invitation to school in our arena would be sufficient to get them on board. Our neighbors to the south are on the other side of a strip of timber, absentee owners of a leased oil field. Honestly, I can’t imagine they have a leg to stand on or would give a flying flip. (Their place is a wasteland, but I can’t see it so I guess I don’t care.) My other neighbors down the road are … one very nice friend who I could get to comment, then one drug house and one fencing operation (and I don’t mean field fencing). With a little effort and some fresh-baked cookies, I can probably get my two closest neighbors to show up and say how much they would love for us to have an indoor.

Again, thank you for such thorough insight.

Fencing operation? Wow.

Find out from the company representative if moving the Clearspan voids the warranty.

Be sure your insurance company will insure those buildings where you are.

Excellent points about the insurance, thank you!

I’m confused why everyone believes this will be considered a building. Is that what the town/county said it would be? It doesn’t sound like a building or structure to me, and that would be where I would start. And for goodness sakes, don’t call it an arena. A cover for storage, maybe, and I would first find out if it can be considered temporary and moveable. It may not fall under ANY of those restritions which apply to buildings.

It is an Equipment Storage Shed…at least that’s what my friend built and now rides in :slight_smile:

When I called and talked to DC Builders in Oregon about indoors, they told me to call it a “horse exercise pen that has a roof” and for God’s sake do not say the word arena.

In my area the suggested euphemism is hay storage barn. :wink: