Anyone Gone Through a Permitting Battle for an Indoor Arena?

[King_s_Ransom]

We are finally (financially) ready to get an indoor arena for personal (not business) use.

We are planning on a Clearspan fabric structure. There is one (and only one) available site on our property; any other spot would require a tremendous amount of dirt work.

I have not approached anyone at the County about this yet and wanted to know what some of you may have encountered as well as any advice. DH suggests finding an attorney first and let them handle the permitting … is that what you guys think, too?

Our property is zoned Agriculture, but the regs are confusing because this zoning appears to only apply to tracts of 20 acres or more, and we are at 17-1/2. On the map, we are Ag zoned, but if we are less than 20 acres, then does this not apply?

I am most concerned about two issues: setbacks from the property line and height. The arena I want would be about 40 feet at the peak; the regs appear to limit height to 35-1/2 feet … except for the ag zone.

Where do I start?

[beowulf]

I would start at your local town hall - bylaws are different county to county, or at least that is what I am learning. The building department would have answers for you, I imagine.

[dotneko]

State?
Our local Farm Bureau was a big help when we were building ours 20 years ago in MA. They wanted to require a handicapped accessible bathroom and were trying to classify us as commercial instead of agricultural.

[TheJenners]

If you are zoned ag but less than the county req, it might be because the farm is grandfathered in. This may or may not allow new structures.

My first step would be the permitting office to ask questions. You don’t have to let on about the pending permit, just to ask clarification on your particular plot.

[Marla_100]

You need to determine the current zoning on your property. Visit your town hall or city dept. to determine this.

Then ask for a copy of permitted uses in that zoning classification. You may have to pay for each page but get the whole thing for your classification.

Read all pages carefully. If setbacks and heights are not in the zoning ordinance, visit the Bldg. Dept. and ask for those in writing. While here get a copy of their requirements for pulling a bldg. permit for ag. buildings. See if you need formal plans, new survey, etc.

Many towns/counties have all the above regulations online so check first.
Now you’re ready to start planning. If you cannot meet current setbacks or height requirements, you may need to find out how difficult it is to get an exception to their ordinance.

[2miniB]

Also check into how your town figures property tax. It’s standard procedure for the town I live in, and one of the neighboring towns, to tax barns/indoor arenas at the same rate as houses.

[King_s_Ransom]

Someone asked what state – we are in Kansas.

The entire zoning regs are online and I have downloaded the pdf – but as I wrote, it’s tough to figure it out as a lay person.

Clearspan is checking to see if they have already installed buildings in my county, as that would be helpful to know.

So - you don’t think I need to start with an attorney, but just go in and ask questions?

PS – we are not in the city, but out in the unincorporated area. We are definitely zoned Ag, but I don’t understand this part about >20 acres.

[Bluey]

If height is the only drawback, consider a standard metal barn, that doesn’t need to be quite so high.
If what you want is the light, put as many light panels in it as you think you need, on the roof and walls.

Here, a 18’ barn on the eaves, 120’ wide, at 2:12 pitch, will only be about 24’/26’ at the peak.

Just one more option.

[SMF11]

I’ll be the lone voice saying hire a good local land use attorney. It will save you hours of time, and they will know how to get it done (there could be more than one way to get approval). If you can afford an indoor, you can afford the $1,000 or so to make sure it’s done right.

[Marla_100]

Check on and make sure zoning is Ag. I bought a little farm years ago that the Real Estate Agent assured me was zoned for horses. I was young and dumb.
Found out the zoning had been changed back to residential so I had to organize a neighborhood effort to get us re-zoned back to RC1 to allow horses.

Probably the reason for the 35 ft. height is that their fire truck ladders only reach that height. Again, it’s not set in stone and there are special exceptions that can be argued. This is why it’s best to go in person with an inquiring demeanor and someone will tell you how to go about everything.

I can’t imagine why you’d hire an atty. for this but it’s your choice. Clearspan
might be able to help walk you through this also. Are they doing the construction?

Regarding your acreage, you probably were grandfathered in under the Ag. Zoning but all new subdivision of ag. land would be required to have 20 ac.

[beowulf]

I guess it would depend on your area and how strict the municipality is.

In my area at least, you could go up to the BD of the Town Clerk and as long as you were polite they’d be happy to help you.

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=SMF11;8834210]
I’ll be the lone voice saying hire a good local land use attorney. It will save you hours of time, and they will know how to get it done (there could be more than one way to get approval). If you can afford an indoor, you can afford the $1,000 or so to make sure it’s done right.[/QUOTE]

I will second this. I know several people in my area who tried to get permits for indoor/covered arenas for their property, and it was a no-go due to county/city regs. Basically, even though their properties are zoned AG, they are in a fast-growing surburban area, and such structures are allowed only if they are not visible from the road or from surrounding homes - and neither property had a suitable location.

Another friend in this area built a covered arena some years back, and they went through H*** getting permits, because even though they are located on the more rural edge of the county, it is a major metropolitan county. The property had already been subbed out for estate homes before they bought it, and the county had no process in place to revert from Residential zoning back to Agricultural. It took a good year to get that straightened out. And then there were - as someone mentioned above - county demands for handicap-accessible bathrooms, turn lanes off the road, etc., etc. It was a big headache.

[hb]

In my area there are different zoning categories for rural and agricultural, that list an acre size, but if you are below that size you are still that category. For instance, my sister lives in R-5, which is Rural zoned for 5 acre lots, but her property is only 2 acres. She still has to follow the R-5 rules. I’m in A-35 which is agricultural 35 acres, and although I only have 5 acres the agricultural rules apply. I just cannot subdivide or build another dwelling - at this time my area requires 35 acres to build a dwelling but my house was built before that came into effect.

In my county the agricultural designation has the fewest rules around buildings I can build a storage building up to a certain size with no permits required and bring in a certain amount of fill like gravel without needing a permit, as long as any work is a certain number of feet from any waterway (which includes the drainage ditches that are everywhere around here).

Not sure if that is how it works in your county but it is not likely that you are considered agricultural even if you are under the 20 acres - usually a whole area is defined agricultural even if some properties in the area are under the current size definition.

In my area you wouldn’t need an attorney to get permits for a covered arena, unless the county originally turns down the permits and you want to fight them. Will your contractor provide information for you to fill out the permit requests? When I looked into putting up an indoor, the contractors would do the permitting for a fee, or provide information for the forms and the property owner could file for the permit.

[clanter]

limit height to 35-1/2 feet

that may be eave height max not ridge line height

nevertheless a coverall would be considered a temporary “tent” structure in my area …

[hosspuller]

Being on the local planning/zoning board gives me a bit of perspective on this. Clanter raises a good point. Your indoor may not meet the definition of a permanent structure and its requirements.

I would recommend getting all the information and try to make some sense out of it BEFORE hiring a lawyer. You need to be able to ask relevant questions of the county and the lawyer. Document any answer you do get from the county. (who, what & where) You need to have all the ducks in a row before you commit any money toward the indoor. It could be expensive and still not have an indoor otherwise.

[Guilherme]

[QUOTE=King’s Ransom;8834071]
Someone asked what state – we are in Kansas.

The entire zoning regs are online and I have downloaded the pdf – but as I wrote, it’s tough to figure it out as a lay person.

Clearspan is checking to see if they have already installed buildings in my county, as that would be helpful to know.

So - you don’t think I need to start with an attorney, but just go in and ask questions?

PS – we are not in the city, but out in the unincorporated area. We are definitely zoned Ag, but I don’t understand this part about >20 acres.[/QUOTE]

In the VERY long ago I sat on a township planning commission in WI. This question came up with some frequency. Our minimum lot size was 20 acres and the area was quite rural. We granted exceptions on very few grounds, but one was “consolidation of farms” where one owner would buy out the productive land of another but not take the “farmstead” with the house, outbuildings, barns, etc. Most of the time those pieces were in the 3-5 acre range, but every now and then we had a larger one but smaller than the minimum lot size. The zoning remained A-1 Agricultural unless the new owner wanted set as Residential. I don’t recall anyone asking for Commercial; that would have been required if they were going to run a business, even something as non-land impactful as a real estate office, law office, beauty salon, etc.

This means the history of the piece is important. If planning commissions in KS did things as we did (and we were not at all unusual) then it could be quite legitimate to find a piece zoned agricultural even though the size of the piece was under the normal limit.

I don’t know how your zoning authority words. If it’s normal then in the zoning officer there will be historical maps of the county and you can look at them and see how your piece came to be of it’s size and zoning.

Go find that office and ask your questions. Chances are they will answer them correctly. If your planned structure exceeds the published limits then they will tell you how to request a variance. For what you want to do I’d be surprised if there was much resistance unless you’re going to get close to a property line. Then the adjoining owner may or may not care what you do.

Good luck in your project.

G.

[OTTBs]

[QUOTE=Marla 100;8834228]

I can’t imagine why you’d hire an atty. for this but it’s your choice. Clearspan
might be able to help walk you through this also. Are they doing the construction?

Regarding your acreage, you probably were grandfathered in under the Ag. Zoning but all new subdivision of ag. land would be required to have 20 ac.[/QUOTE]+1

Ask questions at the county or wherever you need the permit from. Why get a lawyer if it turns out you are clearly allowed to put up the arena?

I just put up my indoor arena/stable. The worst part of the process was the county sent me a letter wanting some information that I had no idea how to get. It was all from the water commission and they wanted drainage plans, silt fence locations, and assurance that there were no agricultural drain tiles where the building was going. I think I used a civil engineer and survey company to get their answers.

In my area, I’d have to be on 40 acres now to get the ag zoning that I have on 8 acres. Since I have the ag zoning though, I’m allowed to put up big buildings.

[clanter]

[QUOTE=OTTBs;8834548]
+1

Ask questions at the county or wherever you need the permit from. Why get a lawyer if it turns out you are clearly allowed to put up the arena?
.[/QUOTE]

For one the answer you get from the county or whoever maybe incorrect such as the answer I got when I applied for and obtain the building permit for our barn… they provided the incorrect backset distance from the property line.

I increased the distance they said was the minimum but later found out the structure was five feet too close to the side property line… city’s solution–tear the building down.

After several appearances before the board of adjustments we finally obtained a variance (extra dollars but cheaper than rebuilding)

My suggestion is if you personally handle the paper work get everything in writing

[jawa]

In our county you have to get a permit and inspection for “tents” over a certain size.

So when my brother got married on my farm and had a 3 peaked party tent, it had to have a permit and inspection (the wedding planner handled all of it).

On the other hand, to build my barn (a permanent structure) I would need a permit. The permit process is a plat of your land with the location of the building and the setbacks you will use. There aren’t any inspections required of the building itself. The ag permit does require that it be used actively in commercial agriculture, not just as a hobby.

The first step I would take is to call the permitting office to see what the requirements are for a Clearspan structure for personal use on ag land. Another question is if they have a CUP (conditional use permit) process if the answers you get are just outside of the standards they have.

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

In my county a coverall-type building is a permanent structure and if anything is bigger than 10x10 you need a permit and can expect your property tax to go up.

I agree with going to visit with the zoning/planning office to start with. That said, I have had two different answers on setbacks for my property by talking to two different people there! Get info in writing.