Here’s the thing Glimmer, those are accounting for horses dying ON THE TRACK.
It is not accounting for horses who limped back to the barn or got sent to the sales.
It is not accounting for the horses who should have been euthanized because their joints were so ravaged.
And it doesn’t count a lot of the actual racetracks!
[QUOTE=FairWeather;3293316]
Here’s the thing Glimmer, those are accounting for horses dying ON THE TRACK.
It is not accounting for horses who limped back to the barn or got sent to the sales.
It is not accounting for the horses who should have been euthanized because their joints were so ravaged.
And it doesn’t count a lot of the actual racetracks![/QUOTE]
Ah, so Saratoga should keep a log of a horse who pulled up in a race, was vanned off and 45-days later were taken to a sale is east nowhere - and then depending on what happened to that horse after that tag that last race “as a death”?
I appreciate the fact (I think) that you want to broaden additional tools of measuring animal welfare. That said there are the logical stats to be kept by a track and then requring far more then should be expected? They list racing, training, and backstretch deaths. If there is a need for injured logs and even a great racing body that tracks if a horse returned to racing anywhere within 120-days, 6-months, 1-year so be it.
Lets face it if you hate racing anyonecan certainly find plenty to complain about.
No, actually–how about the horse that vanned off and died two days later in my barn when the owner couldnt be bothered to pay the euthanisation fee?
Romantic notion, I know, and wont happen in a brazillion years.
However, how about they start listing deaths, period?
Can you find for me where Michigan tracks its deaths? I’ll save you some trouble, they do not. Those stats are way off because not every track is keeping track of the deaths. They are off because some have started tracking only just this year, some skipped a few years, some dont track morning deaths. Herein lies the problem–There is no standard statistic, which renders a whole lot of “nationwide” statistics pretty damn useless.
As if these issues are exclusive to race horses.
For any of these statistics to have meaning, we need to be able to compare them to the equine industry as a whole. I’ve seen just as many injustices to back yard horses as I have to race horses. More actually, as I start to think about it. Racing is just an easier scapegoat.
Some more fodder, though as a media whore i’m guessing you’ve already seen these 
http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2008/06/15/sports/20080615_DEATHS.html
"Arkansas, Michigan, Nebraska said their organizations don’t track fatalities at all, and only one of Florida’s three main thoroughbred tracks provided numbers. There were wide differences among the other states in what types of deaths are monitored and how far back the records go.
“Nobody really knows how big of a problem it is,” said Rick Arthur, California’s equine medical director. “They just know it’s a big problem.”
Fairly certain I did not say they are. The equine industry as a whole has nothing to do with racehorse deaths in my opinion. I’ve had the opposite experience as you as far as injustices to race horses versus backyard horses, does that make your opinion obsolete?
Racing could clean itself up, it just chooses not to.
I don’t believe any one has ever said that there’s a horse dies per race. The figures that are usually bandied about are about 1.85 to 2 catasrophic breakdowns per 1000 starts, so one expect to see about 1 death per 65 to 70 races. Given there are 140 odd races a day, with 1100-1200 odd horses running (obviously more on weekends, less on Mondays/Tuesday) then you can expect to see 2 horses a day breakdown to the point of euthanization on average nationwide in the US.
The numbers quoted in the NYT article include both STB and TB racing. The STB figures will skew the overall numbers down, as there is a lower breakdown rate in harness racing, for the obvious reason they don’t go as fast. I doubt the numbers for NYRA TB racing would differ much from national TB numbers. If anything that article is doing TB racing a favour but not breaking out the numbers.
[QUOTE=FairWeather;3293568]
Racing could clean itself up, it just chooses not to.[/QUOTE]
Exactly.
And I don’t HATE racing at all. It’s the shoddy practices that go along with it that leave a bad taste in my mouth. Does it really need be this way?
Why do race trackers in the US and Canada believe their horses can’t be competitive without drugs? Wasn’t there a KD winner who was disqualified for having trace amounts of bute in his system many years ago? Now 99% of US racehorses run on all the bute and lasix their connections want to give them and nobody blinks an eye. SOP.
The powers that be consider AI a major threat to the breed :lol: but steroids, EPO (wonderful stuff :dead:) and other dangerous drugs are just fine and aren’t even required to be reported? Well, maybe snake venom isn’t kosher - yet.
And yes, crapastic farriery is a major cause of breakdowns. What is the typical cost of shoeing a race horse? In the races I watched at “Sufferin Downs” (right on George), the majority of horses looked to be running on flat tires. Don’t any of these “horsemen” notice the severely contracted heels (shoes so bent and closed at the heel they almost look to be egg bars)? The deep splits between the bulbs? The heel buttresses running forward to the center of the foot? The overly long toes? Come to think of it, it’s no wonder they’re all on drugs and breakdown so catastrophically.
No, (plural) you don’t hate racing. (plural) You just like to come here and criticize it, choose to ignore any of the clean up efforts that have been pointed out, and make it impossible to enjoy this forum without having to sift through all the crap.
I give up. You win.
Congratulations on ruining the forum.
[QUOTE=Barnfairy;3294010]
No, (plural) you don’t hate racing. (plural) You just like to come here and criticize it, choose to ignore any of the clean up efforts that have been pointed out, and make it impossible to enjoy this forum without having to sift through all the crap.
I give up. You win.
Congratulations on ruining the forum.[/QUOTE]
My thoughts exactly. All these idiots are actually doing is running the actual racehorse folks off the board. I cant stand reading the crap posted on here anymore, especially by people who dont know what end a horse craps out of. I used to think I knew a little bit about a horse, when I was young and dumb, but as I have gotten older I realize how much I have learned and how much more there is to learn. Perhaps once they have successfully run the real racetrack folk off the racing forum they will be happy, pretending to know something, without anyone who actually DOES know whats going on to contradict their crap.
The thing is, “idiots” who don’t know “which end a horse craps out of” are potential racing fans.
I think it is a problem that deaths and accidents aren’t reported/tracked the same way everywhere. It’s a part of racing whether we like it or not, right? Injured horses racing is also a fact, not something a few “idiots” made up just because they hate racing.
I think there are some of us out here who maybe aren’t race trainers or owners, and are not expert handicappers. But we actually enjoy racing, find it thrilling and beautiful, and like to follow our favorites. We’re the kind of people racing needs to attract, so why is it the more I see (not the more I “read” from idiot news media people, not the more I “hear” on the rumor mill, but the more I actually SEE with my own eyes), the harder it is to love the sport? When I see lame horses working in the morning, being put in a position where a breakdown becomes likely, it’s sort of hard to defend.
And I’ve defended racing a lot, to a lot of people- when the HBO special came out, or whenever there’s a high profile accident- I’m out there explaining to people the things the racing industry is doing, the things individuals are doing, etc. I’m the one talking about how horses hurt themselves and why certain injuries are non-fixable, and also not exclusive to racing. I’m right there explaining how racing is no worse (and may be better) than some other horse sports in some ways- so I would hope if I had an opinion it might “count”
If racing’s going to survive it has to attract new fans, and keep the casual fans it has. The issues of drugging and running injured horses, and even the issue of horses shipping off to the kill pens- like it or not, fair or not, it’s part of the image of racing.
I’m rambling because I’m tired, so I apologize for that. I think I’m just trying to say that the opinions many are “sick of” and annoyed by are things that are serious issues, and how the racing industry deals with those issues could go a long way towards either killing or saving the industry. Just maybe.
Well said, Caff.
There was an article in last week’s Pennsylvania Equestrian that took note of the changes underway in the horse industry as a whole in this country, and fragmentation was one of the problems listed. Fragmentation means that the horse industry breaks itself into little discipline-specific compartments that resist interaction even though we all have a shared interest in keeping the overall industry healthy.
Like it or not, anyone involved in any discipline that employs TBs is tied directly or indirectly to the TB racing industry.
And anyone who makes a living with horses – as do I and many on this board – is linked in the public mind, rightly or wrongly, to the equine industry events that make the news. I have never been directly involved in racing, but when Barbaro and Eight Belles broke down, everyone I know called me for information and to comment. Like Caffeinated, I found myself defending not just racing but the horse industry as a whole.
It would be shortsighted at best to deny other horsepeople this board, or to give up the opportunity to share the wealth of knowledge here, don’t you think?
But lets be honest, caffeinated, if you went to a baseball forum and the only thing you had to offer was “Barry Bonds is a druggie!” and “Ever notice what a snore this game is?”, I don’t think you’ll be looked at as a potential fan, especially if all you ever did was post this stuff over and over and over again.
To have questions is great. To have concerns, appropriate. But to hang out in a forum apparently dedicated to racing when the interest is clearly to villify the sport makes that person, in my book, a troll. And count me with Barnfairy and Jessie P as someone who finds it really tiresome.
Incidentally I spent the last three days–all day-- at 2 California racetracks. I watch the works for hours at the off track and the racing at the other. I spent all 3 mornings in the barn watching horses come back from their gallops and works and then I sat and watched hours of simulcasting. Maybe I was lucky but I didn’t see a single incident other than some loose horses including one in the afternoon who thought he won the race. 
But what I did see was fans enjoying themselves as well as some marvelous racing.
What I’d love to see here is some sense of perspective.
Most will never watch more than a handful of high profile races a year, and few will ever pump money through the betting windows on a regular basis. At the end of the day the latter is what supports racing.
The overwhelming majority of racing purses, probably 95%+, are funded by pari-mutuel takeout or casino share. That is how racing is structured in the US. So if they aren’t betting, they aren’t supporting racing. “Fans” really don’t do much. It ain’t like the NFL etc where they merchandise a lot or make zillions on TV contracts, hell racing has to practically pay to get a slot on ESPN.
So if racing solved all the problems that all the recent “OMG I can’t watch racing anymore, it’s so cruel” folks wanted solved, then it wouldn’t do a damn thing to help day to day racing. They would still watch the same five races a year and still wouldn’t bet in any appreciable way.
Over time I believe racing will chip away at the wastage rate, because most people involved in racing are horse lovers at heart. It will never totally eliminate it, as it is part of the nature of the game, and if you can’t stomach that, then don’t watch the sport, and for godsakes don’t come around bitching about “I can never watch racing again”.
There are two things recently that are making this forum an unreadable pile of feces, one is clueless people pontificating about how bad racing is and how it needs to do this that and the other, and two is people dismissing every criticism and going “don’t look at the man behind the screen/nothing to see here people, move along”.
Horses breakdown, we know that, it sucks. We don’t need to be informed about it and how awful it is. Nor do we need people coming from the other direction claiming it is statistically negligible, because it happens, at a rate of 2 a day and can’t be denied. Racing is what it is. You either like it or you don’t.
It reminds me of the recent ban on foxhunting debate, where you have people screaming on one side how cruel it is and people on the other side justifying it by saying the fox actually enjoys the hunt. I don’t believe for one minute a fox isn’t intensely traumitised, yet I support foxhunting.
—“There are two things recently that are making this forum an unreadable pile of feces, one is clueless people pontificating about how bad racing is and how it needs to do this that and the other, and two is people dismissing every criticism and going “don’t look at the man behind the screen/nothing to see here people, move along”.
Horses breakdown, we know that, it sucks. We don’t need to be informed about it and how awful it is. Nor do we need people coming from the other direction claiming it is statistically negligible, because it happens, at a rate of 2 a day and can’t be denied. Racing is what it is. You either like it or you don’t.
It reminds me of the recent ban on foxhunting debate, where you have people screaming on one side how cruel it is and people on the other side justifying it by saying the fox actually enjoys the hunt. I don’t believe for one minute a fox isn’t intensely traumitised, yet I support foxhunting.”—
So what you are saying there is that you want people to say yes, we love racing and don’t mind that we kill some horses, because it is so much fun to watch them run that we can do fine knowing some will die?:eek:
Then you complain because some don’t like racing because horses die.
Then complain because others say to please put it in perspective with what all we do with horses and life’s chances to die anyway.
By the time you whittle at who can say what, there won’t be many left here anyway for you to complain about.
Just the people who want to talk racing. So who do you fancy at Ascot this week? Starts tomorrow with the Queen Anne.
This is the kind of statement that makes my head spin. Assuming the numbers bandied about above are right: 2 horses die each day while racing.
Does the anti-racing faction actually believe that those racehorses are the only 2 horses across the country that die each day (not of old age)? I suspect the number lost to racing looks mild compared to those who break down every day doing things like running in fields, pulling Amish carriages, or jumping around cross-country courses.
Yes, some horses do die while racing. They also die while doing every other possible thing that humans do with them. Sure horse racing needs to fix some things–but it certainly isn’t the despicable activity it’s being made out to be here.
Jessi, Barnfairy, Pronzini, I’m with you guys. I give up. We might as well find someplace else to go and let this turn into the I-Hate-Horseracing-Forum.
See, crap like this doesn’t do anyone any favours. You really need to get your head around numbers. 2 horses per 1000 starters do not die in most other equine related activities. If that were the case there would be a couple of horse deaths in competition per day at places like HITS Ocala, Thermal and big QH shows. Anyone can walk right in a blow huge holes in your reasoning. Given that there is a total horse population of 6 million, and if 5 million of those were actively doing something every day (like running in fields, pulling Amish carriages, or jumping around cross-country courses) you would have 10,000 horses per day dying if they died at rate of 2 per 1000 starters.
Racing has a higher wastage rate than any other equine activity, except maybe the upper levels of eventing. There is no need to minimize that or try to pretend it away. It is what it is. It doesn’t mean you have to dislike racing or stop enjoying it. It is the nature of the sport. Trying to pretend otherwise makes you look silly, a bit hypocritical, and perhaps even a tad guilty.
I will probably (once more) regret posting after this, yet again, but…
I just got back from England visiting my family, which is where I grew up. Spent half my life there - enjoying racing, among other things. One of my earliest memories (at the age of 2) is being in a “stroller” on Epsom Downs, where I lived for my first five years, and experiencing the noise and the vibrations and the sight of horses running up "the hil"l. I LOVE the sight and sound and feeling of horses that are bred and born to run and race - enjoying that. And while I was in England, I spent two days in Newmarket myself enjoying - well - all of it; the training in the morning on the gallops, a visit to a wonderful yard of a wonderful trainer, a visit to the beautiful national stud, and an afternoon of great racing. It can be so absolutely beautiful. A lifelong racing fan here… And someone that picked it up again, largely through marriage, here in CA many years later. Even involved in a small breeding business. And have enjoyed many mornings at the racetrack watching them train at Santa Anita, and many days of racing right here in southern CA.
But - as a LOVER of thoroughbreds and racing for my entire lifetime - I am now devoted, passinately, to advocating for improvements in the welfare and aftercare of these wonderful horses.
It isn’t that racing may or may not be any more dangerous for horses than any other equine sport (although it probably is, but who knows). It isn’t that I would want to see an end to the industry. It isn’t that I want all breeding to stop. And it is certainly not that I think these recent statistics that have emerged in light of the upcoming hearings “mean” anything in particular, as I’ve posted.
It is simply that I would like racing to be a sport that I can ADMIRE - and that others can admire. And being willing to support welfare improvements for the equine athletes I think is integral to being a racing fan, whether or not you think things are better or worse here and now relative to the past, or in this relative to other sports, or anything else. I don’t think anyone should be afraid of that.
Being concerned that your forum is being taken over by anti-racing posters? Sure, I can understand that.
But confronting - with good, sound data; good, sound welfare regulations; tight and commited enforcement of those regulations; and honesty - public concerns for racehorse welfare is something we ALL should support. These are in many cases potential racing fans. I know of many that would love to be unequivocally fans of racing that feel they cannot be because industry insiders are so defensive. I am starting to sit on the fence myself! On track welfare and well supported aftercare for the equine athletes that make racing possible should be a top priority for any true racing “fan”.
JMHO.
