Part of the problem is that we are all looking at the US numbers in a vacuum. If we had comparable numbers (as in the Australian study) for the rest of the TB racing world that does not allow running on drugs, we could make some meaningful conclusions about the state of contemporary racing in our country.
But we don’t. We NEED those numbers from every racing jurisdiction, and we need to be able to track horses, both during and after their racing careers. Europe has horse passports for every animal born in the EU. Without something similar, we are being ostriches about what may be a serious problem.
And since racing is a highly regulated industry already, it would not be more invasive to require tracking by way of microchips.
I’m not sure if I’m being called a troll or not, but if I am it will make me giggle like a madman. I’m a HUGE racing fan. I participate in threads over here. I go to the races, I watch, I wager, I travel to see the big races. I am on the backside of a racetrack far more often than most of you will ever know. I am planning to buy a racehorse in the next two years.
So that said, does it make my complaints that racing needs to have a serious talk with itself in order to really track the deaths (IN ORDER TO PREVENT THEM FROM HAPPENING!) obsolete? According to some of you, it does?
What is it that the “racing folks” are objecting to? heres the thing, if nobody is kicking and screaming, Nothing will change. Do you object to change in order to protect the welfare of horses? Or do you just object to “non-trackers” doing the kicking and screaming? If I told you I had a barn full of racehorses sitting at Laurel, would my opinion be more valid?
Second thing is, this is one particular thread discussing the break-downs of horses on racetracks. What were you expecting to read? You can choose not to read the threads where people who ‘dont know the ass end of a racehorse’ are griping about the problems, but you choose to become involved and whine that we’re ruining your forum. Read the other, more positive threads. Hell, go ahead and start one!
But just like racing, you choose not to make a better decision.
One last thing. If Mandella and Zito got on here and started kicking and screaming, would you call them idiots?
Just because someone is making noise does not make them uneducated, against the “sport”, idiotic or a troll.
I’m not sure if I’m being called a troll or not, but if I am it will make me giggle like a madman. I’m a HUGE racing fan. I participate in threads over here. I go to the races, I watch, I wager, I travel to see the big races. I am on the backside of a racetrack far more often than most of you will ever know. I am planning to buy a racehorse in the next two years. [/QUOTE]
And please, please when you finally buy that horse and really live those ups and downs and act as the decision maker, post about your experiences and how it changed your perspective. Because it will. I know :winkgrin: I was very much you ten years ago.
BTW, the trolls I’m talking about are the folks who can’t seem to get through a single racing thread without using words like “abuse” and “slaughter” as though they are synonymous with the activity (and every other horse in non racing activities apparently exists in luxurious grass fields living lives of leisure and comfort). There’s one person in particular who as near I can tell has never posted about a single race that didn’t have a breakdown or about a single horse not “rescued” and whose posts seem to have this subliminal message “You’re all eeeeevviilll”. Why are people like that trying to drive the conversation on a racing forum? Would that be tolerated on any other forum here?
What is it that the “racing folks” are objecting to? heres the thing, if nobody is kicking and screaming, Nothing will change. Do you object to change in order to protect the welfare of horses? Or do you just object to “non-trackers” doing the kicking and screaming? If I told you I had a barn full of racehorses sitting at Laurel, would my opinion be more valid?
Don’t take this the wrong way, but yes. Having actual real world experience always gives an opinion more weight in my experience. You’ll see what I mean soon enough.
There are endless threads on here about how the media gets horses wrong. Well they get racing wrong and then those stories are inflated, magnified and repeated in here. The AP article that we are talking about is a perfect example of an agenda driven article.
That said, there are problems. But like in real life, endlessly focussing on problems without appreciating what drew you to the sport justs gets tiresome.
Pronzini, I appreciate your sensible response, truly. I am going to have to rebut though because I think my points may have been missed.
I can assure you that it won’t change my perspective. I am heavily involved in the “backend” of racing right now. Nothing goes on that I do not know of, nothing will be a surprise. I am well educated to say the least (And Humble! )
BTW, the trolls I’m talking about are the folks who can’t seem to get through a single racing thread without using words like “abuse” and “slaughter” as though they are synonymous with the activity (and every other horse in non racing activities apparently exists in luxurious grass fields living lives of leisure and comfort). There’s one person in particular who as near I can tell has never posted about a single race that didn’t have a breakdown or about a single horse not “rescued” and whose posts seem to have this subliminal message “You’re all eeeeevviilll”. Why are people like that trying to drive the conversation on a racing forum? Would that be tolerated on any other forum here?
I can understand it’s frustrating to hear someone singing the exact same tune every time they post, but it doesn’t mean they don’t have valid points. Hell, it’s why I have an ignore list
It is tolerated on other forums, have you ever read any post by County that wasn’t pro-slaughter? I find it irritating as well–if you are going to complain at least participate, eh? But I’m not queen of the universe (yet!) so I use my ignore button now.
Ahhhh sweet ignore, how I love thee!
Don’t take this the wrong way, but yes. Having actual real world experience always gives an opinion more weight in my experience. You’ll see what I mean soon enough.
I have real world experience, and i’m still pissed. Racing is driven by creating and retaining fans. I am a fan, my opinion is valued. Is being the owner of a racehorse the only item on ones resume that gives merit to an opinion? Thats some bad logic there if I do say so myself. Thats like saying anybody who criticizes that asshat in the white house has no right to do so because they’ve never been the president. I’ve never owned a horse that was actively racing, but i’ve ‘owned’ over 30 that I picked up after they left the test barn. Is my opinion not valid? Is my kicking and screaming unwarrented? I guarantee i’ll be screaming about injustices even when I am an owner. I guarantee my horse will never run on EPO. It will never be iced before it runs. It will not run sore, because i’ll be there to watch it and will have it with a trainer I trust (but not trust too much, natch ).
There are endless threads on here about how the media gets horses wrong. Well they get racing wrong and then those stories are inflated, magnified and repeated in here. The AP article that we are talking about is a perfect example of an agenda driven article.
The only part of your post that I found offensive. Agenda? Reporting (inaccurately!) deaths of horses is an agenda? Horses are dying on the track. Freak Accidents happen. Sometimes its not a freak accident, sometimes they are running when they clearly should not be (did you know michigan does not have pre-race vet inspections?). True, you dont hear much about the good guys, but the media doesn’t love the good guys.
That said, there are problems. But like in real life, endlessly focussing on problems without appreciating what drew you to the sport justs gets tiresome.
As tiresome as it is to watch horses die? I find it annoying personally, all those sheets, the poor vet has to walk half-way around the track…annoying! (sorry, i jest, but really!?)
There ARE problems. What is racing do to fix them?
Where are the nation-wide funds to help horses that people have made their livings on, only to be discarded?
Where are the suspensions of trainers and vets who inject animals with illegal drugs?
There are so many ways to run this sport in a cleaner fashion. Now is the time to swing those closet doors open and get those rattling bones out of there!
Don’t take this the wrong way, but yes. Having actual real world experience always gives an opinion more weight in my experience. You’ll see what I mean soon enough.
Does Nick Zito have enough street cred. for you? How about Van Berg?
—“Where are the nation-wide funds to help horses that people have made their livings on, only to be discarded?”—
I disagree there.
Just as people should not assume racing itself is abusive, it is how some conduct themselves that may make it so, I will say horses are not “discarded”, not in racing or any other we do with them, but are found other uses.
To say that “horses are discarded” is way too broad a generalization.
No matter what we do with horses, there are many that quit being of use, for many reasons, in many situations, be it young ones that are not going to make it, to broodmares not producing, to horses that did make it and now don’t fill a use any more.
There are way too many horses out there that, for many, many reasons we don’t have use for, called today “unwanted” horses.
Just as we have to accept that there will be accidents, no matter what we do in life, even drive and don’t quit driving because of it, we have to be sensible and admit that many horses will eventually not have any use.
I would not say that those horses are or should be “discarded”, as you put it.
Many are found other uses for a while, others people just keep around past their regular use and that is fine, but not everyone can do that, or do it for every horse they will own in a lifetime.
I don’t think that we owe ALL those horses no one has use for, as a society, to organize horsey welfare for them for the rest of their lives, at our society’s cost.:no:
We can’t do so for all our PEOPLE and it is not right to ask now that we do so for the unwanted horses.
That would be a very large drain of so many resources, that I don’t think our society has to spare.:eek:
If we retire every former racing horse, at our cost, what do you think that figure would be after a few years?:eek:
Do you really think the racing industry can carry that cost, mounting year after year?
The BLM is warehousing some 3000 unadoptable feral horses right now at over 4 million a year cost, figures before these last price increases.
There is a good way to get one more use of a horse that was not going to run or be of use any more in any other way, for some horses, the slaughterhouse.
That solves one problem, that horse is not on anyone’s expense sheet and did serve one last purpose.
Recycling one of our renewable resources at it’s best.
[QUOTE=FairWeather;3295214]
Before I respond to some absolutely jaw-dropping points, can you clarify who “we” is in this phrase?
Do you mean “we” as in taxpayers? Or “We” as in racing, or “we” as in you personally, or “we” as in some omniscient being?[/QUOTE]
We as a society.
I am adressing these problems in a larger context than only racing, although racing is a part of it.
Before you respond, you may also want to check here, especially post 33, on the plight some horses are starting to find themselves:
I know, it is people that are not responsible, just like we have with dogs and cats.
I just don’t think that we should have to end with horses in animal control, as we do with dogs now.
How does that tie in with race horses?
Do you want to have a race horse industry?
If so, you can’t make it be only for the very rich, that can support the horses they breed and race and then can maintain into retirement thru their whole long lives.
I agree, we should not “discard” horses at the end of their racing career, but my point, that you may have missed, is that we don’t, other than the rare uncaring person and that those people are in anything we do in life.
If you wonder, we bred and trained and raced horses and after they were thru running, we retrained them also for fox hunters and ranch horses and we had a good demand for them.
WE were not part of the problem, but I understand where others, not in our situation, that own race horses may have a problem when moving on from one horse that is not doing what they want to the next ones.
That is something you will find for yourself, if you ever participate as a serious owner, not just running one horse for fun here and there and paying them into a retirement home for the rest of their lives, which is fine also.
But i’m talking about only racing here. It’s the only sport regulated by a government sponsored bill. It’s the only (legally) wagered-on horse sport. It’s the only billion-dollar horse industry out there.
Before you respond, you may also want to check here, especially post 33, on the plight some horses are starting to find themselves:
I’m well aware of the plight of horses in general, including this one.
How does that tie in with race horses?
Do you want to have a race horse industry?
If so, you can’t make it be only for the very rich, that can support the horses they breed and race and then can maintain into retirement thru their whole long lives.
Here’s where you’ve made an assumption that isn’t true. I am not asking that an owner support an animal thru its entire life. My suggestion, as queen of the universe, is to take responsibility for that animal until it is transitioned safely (And Healthy!) into a new home, and if that is not possible, euthanize the horse that you saw fit to purchase or bring into this world and race.
I agree, we should not “discard” horses at the end of their racing career, but my point, that you may have missed, is that we don’t, other than the rare uncaring person and that those people are in anything we do in life.
Wow, rare and uncaring? You do realize how many of those people are around, right? I’ve got four voicemails right now from the elusive “uncaring” owner. I should document this rare creature!
Seriously, it’s all relative. Keeneland has some better owners than Thistledown. Its about responsibility. If you break a horse, have the decency to either fix it, or kill it via euthanasia. Dont use drugs and claiming races to magically gallop those problems into someone elses barn.
WE were not part of the problem, but I understand where others, not in our situation, that own race horses may have a problem when moving on from one horse that is not doing what they want to the next ones.
I am glad to hear this–I always want to hug people for doing the right thing. And i’d probably wrap my arms around you for taking care of what is yours. And after I gave you a hug I’d gently peel the rose colored glasses off of your eyes. There is a MASSIVE problem with people dumping horses at tracks. If you think there is not, I encourage you to spend just one week with one of the racehorse rescues. Read their emails, answer their phone.
Dont crucify the people trying to fix those issues.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;3294770]
Part of the problem is that we are all looking at the US numbers in a vacuum. If we had comparable numbers (as in the Australian study) for the rest of the TB racing world that does not allow running on drugs, we could make some meaningful conclusions about the state of contemporary racing in our country.
But we don’t. We NEED those numbers from every racing jurisdiction, and we need to be able to track horses, both during and after their racing careers. Europe has horse passports for every animal born in the EU. Without something similar, we are being ostriches about what may be a serious problem.
And since racing is a highly regulated industry already, it would not be more invasive to require tracking by way of microchips.[/QUOTE]
The breakdown rate per start in the UK is around 0.6 horses per start, compared to 2.01 in the US. BUT - how to compare those numbers? Collection methods vary across states here so widely and across countries? And I don’t know if the number for the UK includes national hunt races. In Hong Kong, the fatal breakdown rate per start that is reported is substantially lower than in the UK. There are numbers out there - just how can we compare them?
Racehorses in the UK are microchipped not tattoed. But there are only between 5000 and 6000 foals born per year there compared to 35,000 here.
I’m not sure of the cost. And ex-racehorses go to slaughter in the UK for human consumption in France.
While I agree that there is a massive problem with people dumping horses, those are not the people who are calling rescues. Those people are attempting to rehome their horse into an environment where he will be cared for and go on to have a second career. I know its easy to get overwhelmed by all the requests, but you have to remember these people are the good guys. The bad guys never call a rescue, they call the meat man, or worse yet, the meat man just stops by on a regular basis.
Regardless of how overburdened a rescue is, they have to work like crazy to help those horses even if it means networking with other agencies until someone finds a foster home for the horse. Because if we turn them away, they might turn into the people who are dumping their horses. They try to do the right thing by the horse to no avail so they see the meat man as the only other alternative.
I have so many horses I am working on rehoming right now, I can’t even count them all off the top of my head. One I even guilted the vet into gelding free of charge. I told him I could place the horse but his nuts couldn’t come along for the ride. That one leaves on Saturday.
)
