Where did you scribe for a hunter judge? That usually does not happen. Interesting.
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I think if they’re a good jumper they will certainly succeed. But unfortunately, some judges are rather prejudiced. I was in one show where the judge only placed certain colored horses and wouldn’t even bat an eye at the better jumpers who had different colored horses. What a shame.
I would like some more details about discipline of this show and what your role was and how you got access to the judge’s cards to make such a determination.
ETA: The OP asked specifically about showing In A/AA Hunters. So experience with showing and judging at that level is relevant; other circuits/levels, not so much.
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It was regular schooling hunter jumper show at a round robin like local league. The comment cards were released to the riders right after the placings and all the respective trainers from all the barns were in some agreement that the placings were rather unfair. There were also rumors and comments from passing by boarders that one of the judges had a liking for “dark bay flashy horses.” Nothing can be confirmed of course but there was a lot of incriminating evidence agreed upon by several of the trainers/host barn.
ETA: it was a very minor local show so no huge fuss was raised but to my knowledge the judge was never invited to judge at the barn again. Of course if this is a higher rated show I would hope this would never happen but it isn’t a completely new idea in hunter world.
This was in the late 80s /early 90s at a big H/J show in Canada… and the judges (or that judge anyway) always had a scribe so they could keep their eyes on the horse. Thus I rarely saw a round - just paid attention to my sheet and what the judge was saying…
Smoo,
How did you actually mark the card? Did the judge have to describe the jumping efforts and you drew the arc? I’m just not sure how scribing for a hunter judge would work.
I have definitely seen hunter judges use a second set of eyes in a flat class, but I’m not sure how this would work over fences.
Jumping31, Where the cards “comments cards” or did they have actual judge’s notation on the them with scores for each trip? And did anyone reading them understand the judge’s notation? If it was a legitimate judge, how the class was pinned should be immediately apparent from viewing the notation on the card, assuming the viewer understood standard notation. Competitors may not always agree, and at a low level schooling show, there’s some legitimate variation in how adding a stride or a not perfect change may be scored. But that should be clear from viewing the card.
If you don’t understand how hunters are judged, and can’t read the card, and a big flashy bay wins, it’s pretty easy for the rumor to start that the judges “only like big, flashy bay horses.”
None of which has anything to do with the OP’s original question, which was about A/AA shows.
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I am not immune from this fallacy. Back in the day, I showed in (unrated divisions) at the local As on my wonderful sweet roan appendix QH and never, ever pinned above third. I occasionally thought it was breed/color prejudice because I adored that fabulous horse and I worked my butt off to show him.
The fact of the matter is those fourths, fifths and sixths in good company were amazing. And not only were they not breed/color prejudice, I think they were the opposite. I think that after the judge pinned first and second, and looked at the bunch of trips that scored around the 80 mark, they said to themselves “Ohhh, may I can give something to that adorable roan horse and that working student! Their trip was an 82, maybe I can use them!” (That’s my experience with judging at the local level - there’s usually a trip or two that are standouts and obviously top of the class, and then a cluster of trips around the 80 mark where the judge’s preferences may influence the pinning. Or a bunch of trips at the 70 mark and you pin the least bad.)
I also think that’s why I infuriatingly got a lot of call backs with no ribbon. That was the worst, being called back to jog in 7th or 8th. But again, I think the real message there was “Like your horse, like you, had to pin the horse that cruised down the lines above you, but atta girl!” not “Off breed, funny color, get outta my ring.”
That fact of the matter is, someone in a class at that level on a typey horse is always going to lay down a trip in the high 80s/low 90s. And on a smaller horse that had to work to get the step and be set up to get his change, no matter how adorable he was over fences, at best, I could lay down a trip in the mid 80s. In a competitive class, that left judges scrambling to give us a low ribbon or a call back if they otherwise liked our go.
TL;DR? If you don’t understand how hunters are judged; you can’t cry breed/color prejudice.
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Well it was mentioned above by another commenter and I figured I wasn’t the only one who’s seen this before. The cards had physical comments and not just riding but also the horses in specific. Many of the competing barn trainers had already told many of the girls that they did not particularly enjoy this judges placement. Arguably the judges placement is the decision in the end but it’s completely acceptable to disagree with it opinion wise. Also the girls were not the only ones who had access to the cards. Our coaches from all different competing barns had access. It only starts becoming strange when every single coach from competing teams are conferring with each other that their own girls shouldn’t have place higher than an opposing teams girl. These shows also had a “pick a horses name from a hat” set up at the host barn so it was a gamble in itself.
Jumping,
I’m still not clear from your post what the judge’s card looked like or whether there was standard notation or numerical scores. What I am getting is that it was IHSA or a similar type of show and being judged as equitation.
And I get that the coaches were unhappy with the judging and didn’t understand the why the judge pinned the way she did. That happens in a class of plain bay warmbloods.
I just can’t connect the dots between that and that there’s systemic color/breed bias in the USE rated hunter divisions; let alone the Children’s Hunter. (The division the OP specifically asked about, typically the rated division MOST tolerant of non typical breed/color.)
And I’m really not sure how pinning in an eq class, where the rider is being judged, can be influenced by the judge’s horse breed and color preferences.
BTW, it is common practice for judges to write brief descriptions next to the numbers on the card, such as “Bay WB”, “App”, “chest. w/ chrome” or “pink shirt” or “blingy spurs.” They do that as a memory aid, it’s not part of the judging criteria. So if it’s a big class and the trips start to run together, they can recall the trip from the description, not the number.
Sorry if I’m being overly analytical; but suggestions of biased or bad judging are way too common, and only rarely founded.
I used to do clinics for students and parents where I taught notation, had demo trips and had everybody mark cards and then reviewed them and explained how I would have pinned the class and why. I found it cut down on a lot of the ringside complaining. It’s a great rainy day lesson plan - watch show videos and score the trips.
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I would love to have one!
A nice horse is a nice horse…
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I completely understand how you might be questioning this but to fully understand what lead up to this situation is a long story I would rather not get in to. There is a reason I no longer ride at that barn and even this all shuffles down to an emotionally abusive trainer which I would not like to get into or discuss. I can say that this circuit was not at all run like a typical IHSA or rated show and had separate rules of its own that are unconventional to typical show set ups. But ultimately there was a lot leading up to this that escalated the situation further and I would prefer not to revisit that difficult past.
Sorry you got into that situation Jumper…hope you found a better one when you moved on.
But, just so nobody is confused, the OP did ask about USE rated divisions at rated with currently licensed judges not using scribes. Most answers dealt with that arena where deduction points from a score due to color discrimination is not seen often any more and judges who practice it might not get much work at said rated venues.
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Kim Quinn’s Appaloosa Nantucket was very successful in the AO hunters some years back. They even made the cover of Practical Horseman IIRC.
[QUOTE=findeight;n9897685]
Nothing personal to OP but I have seen horses with primarily Western type conformation not really have the shoulder and hip to generate the long, level stride that makes the lines look easy or get that desireable, knees to the eyeballs, round jump. /QUOTE]
M’eh. Appaloosas shouldn’t have “primarily Western type conformation.” They should NEVER be stock horses with spots. They should be much more in type to a TB. People have ruined them, of course, because that is what we do with everything.
OP: I rode an appy in the 80s…but totally small time. She’s the one horse I would clone if I could. She was so awesome. Dressage trained and lovely. My friend has a half appy/half WB that is pretty darn adorable. I had to talk her into buying him because of the spots…but years down the road, she thanks me because he’s the best horse she’s ever owned.
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I remember that one. Very good horse!
Scandal was another very successful Appaloosa around that same time in the junior hunters.
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A good horse is a good colour. If the horse suits hunters and seems to enjoy it then go for it. Of course there is going to be some ‘old fashioned’ bias against coloured horses but if they are not being shown off and proving they are just as good they aren’t going to shake it.
[quote="“RugBug,post:34,topic:438486”]
I agree wholeheartedly. I had a wonderful App in the late 70’s early 80’s. He moved every bit as well as the fancy TB’s back in the day and had some big time judges pin me well. I had some others that wouldn’t even watch us go around and I just made a note and didn’t show under them again. I recently bought another App and hope she is half the horse that he was.
I have a very loud black and white App gelding, over 16 hands and a freak of nature. His parents look NOTHING like him, other than his sire’s coloring. It’s like he was adopted or something. He’s the fanciest mover in my pastures and I mean jaw dropping trot that makes hunter and dressage riders drool. There is no reason a loud colored horse, with the right movement and jump shouldn’t place. Go show that spotty thing!
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It’s as hard to find a good app as a good apha/aqha these days. I am very frustrated searching and have basically given up and decided I’ll just buy another warmblood (even though I really, really want an apha/aqha). Boy have these breeds been turned into something odd over time. Even more so than when I was doing breed shows in the 80s/90s.
