[QUOTE=Bluey;8470863]
One horse is anecdote, not data, I know, but here it is, one of many, many such performance horses out there, if one cares to look in many barns with such horses, without preconceptions:
He is 23 and still showing and being competitive and sound and healthy and happy.[/QUOTE]
I personally know him and his owner. Great lady and an awesome horse!
To follow Bluey’ post, a few more anecdotes, Mr San Olen was competing successfully at the WS level in cutting at the age of 21…NMSU Truckin Chex competed for 13 years at the WS level, winning multiple world championships through the age of 15…at this year’s Select World, half of he 40 horses competing in Western Riding (a pattern class that requires lots of lead changes), were 15 years or older. As Bluey and TheHunterKid say, there are many more.
[QUOTE=Bluey;8467896]
That is not so easy to answer, there is so much more to horses, here athletes, having injuries and which ones and why than meets the eye.
Horses, like humans, will get injured in all sort of ways just being alive.
Horses, like humans, depending on what they do that requires physical exertion, will have injuries from that exertion, just as pasture puffs will have the kinds of injuries that happen there.
Now, are you sure you can say this kind of training and competing is better or worse because of the kind it is and that is all?
Or the way they are trained and competed?
Or the kind of horse?
Or … ?
Break all that down and there are in depth answers for all of that.
We know today that starting training for any task, for humans and horses and any other, will make the ones so trained better and help them stay fit and sound better than starting later.
In horses, there are now enough studies showing that colts started as early two’s tend to end up with better bone, soft tissue and metabolic adaptations than those started later.
The trick to that is that you have to train right for every stage to achieve that.
If you take any horse and don’t know what you are doing and overdo it, no matter when you start their training, you may cause injuries to happen.
We know today that, when you start each horse, as long as your program fits that horse, they should train to their best, which is the goal of any training.
Many decades ago, in our gymnastic team, most of us started training seriously at 8/9 years old.
Who was the best heads and shoulders over the rest?
The trainer’s girl, that had started in the gym as a 4/5 year old.
She was best because of her training and talent, but also because she had been growing already into it, her body as it matured already adapting and refining her talent.
When starting horses early, that is what we are doing, giving their growing bodies and mind the tools to learn to be the best they are going to be at what they were bred for.
Lets talk about injuries and rehab and any needed maintenance.
You can’t believe how much more we know today about all of that.
Training and conditioning and maintaining is a veritable science today, trainers and vets right on top of it all with tools that were not available just a few years ago.
You can’t believe how much more we can do for anyone competing, injured or in rehab.
Unless you have some way to compare between barns, you know the whole training, competing and vet history of all those horses, you really don’t know which barn was doing the best for their horses, which horses may have problems.
The reasons, without knowing any more, are a mere guess, generally a biased one if we don’t know the discipline we are being critical about.
Then, lets see, the type of horse, that too enters the picture here.
You will stress a larger, lean type TB if you expect it to train and perform against horses bred for short, athletic bursts.
You may end up with a very sick horse if it is built and trained for short distances and you expect it to now run a 1 1/2 mile against TBs.
What that shows you is that, when you have the right horse for the task at hand, train it correctly for that task, is talented and performs that task well and the lucky stars align for everyone, those horses, that is many that compete, will do well.
Two years ago, they looked at the performance horses in the NFR, the National Finals Rodeo.
Those are horses that have spent years training and hauling down the road and competing and qualified by money earned on them that year to be at the top.
The median age of those was 17 1/2 years old and more than half were over 20.
Those are not the exception, at the lower levels of competition in many disciplines, there are many horses that were started young, now older, sound and happy horses competing at whatever level their talent, training and in their older years less intense competing permits them.
My point, I don’t think it is valid to question in a negative way a whole group, with no more to go by than the OP brought to the table here.[/QUOTE]
Pfffft. Oh my God I can’t believe what I just read. I’d LOVE to see that study!
Another example, Lisa Lockhart’s Chisum is still barrel racing very competitively at the age of 17.
http://spintowinrodeo.com/content/content/7280/asset_upload_file178_13810.jpg
Charmayne’s great horse Scamper also won his 10th consecutive world title in barrel racing at age 17 … even after knee surgery a few years before that.
The iconic photo from 1985 in the 7th go-round when they WON the round together … with his broken bridle dangling between his legs.
http://f.tqn.com/y/rodeo/1/W/Z/2/no-bridle.jpg
[QUOTE=Rusty15;8471449]
Pfffft. Oh my God I can’t believe what I just read. I’d LOVE to see that study![/QUOTE]
They are easy to find. There have been a number of studies done over the years with young Thoroughbreds, looking at the impacts of race training on bone and soft tissue development. Go to Google Scholar, which indexes scientific publications, and search for the relevant key words. That will turn some up and it will show you which ones have full text available for free on the internet.
[QUOTE=NoSuchPerson;8471568]
They are easy to find. There have been a number of studies done over the years with young Thoroughbreds, looking at the impacts of race training on bone and soft tissue development. Go to Google Scholar, which indexes scientific publications, and search for the relevant key words. That will turn some up and it will show you which ones have full text available for free on the internet.[/QUOTE]
TX A+M had one of the first reported ones in the general horse magazines.
I think Equus had a blurb on that study of some of their colts started at two and others at three and the twos had better physical and mental parameters for athleticism and ease of training that lasted for several years, until both groups were mature.
That one was probably now close to 20 years ago?
Good training is the one that serves the task at hand best and bad training is that which causes stress and injuries and those are dependent on the kind of training and the horse trained more than which age you start the training.
The studies of Deb Bennet were important and enlightening.
Her educated eye to horse function has helped open the eyes of many on the why’s of training and so much else.
Then, her conclusions in the earlier years, that we should not do this or that based on what she found of skeleton maturity, were not quite as clear.
She forgot horses in the wild are generally under as much if no more stressed while very young than domesticated ones and have evolved adapting to it.
Having to travel 20+ miles a day from waterhole to waterhole and grazing spots, from the time they are born practically, going thru feast and famine as they are yearlings and on up and trying to keep with everyone and run from predators is not any easier on those horses than raised in pastures and adapting to regular, measured exercise and training, if we think about it.
Yes, young feral horse are not ridden, but they have other stresses on their developing bodies that domestic horses don’t have and all of them adapt to the conditions they are raised and living under, as most species have evolved to do.
Mind you, I came to the US from an Europe where we just would not have started a horse under saddle before four, just was not done, none were available to start before that.
The rare time we received a three year old, late in the fall, we drove them along an older horse pulling our farm wagons until next spring.
Then I came to the US and horses were ridden as early twos and I wondered about that.
Then spent decades breeding and raising and training and competing and caring for horses all their lives and you know what, those twos were excellent to train, very very willing and wanted to work with you, not reserved as fours tended to be.
You had a work ethic on the twos, you had to develop one on the ones started at four.
As far as injuries and how sound and happy in work a horse was thru their lives, they all, no matter when started, did best if they were raised, trained, competed and managed wisely, no matter when started.
We lost our 30 year old a few years ago, that was started with a few rides during the winter before his two year old birthdate in the spring, as so many race colts are started.
He was sound and healthy and happy until he came in playing and bucking and twisted his knee beyond repair.
That pasture injury, not his age or when he was started was why he is not with us any more.
There are many such horses out there, if we care to look.
We have had the rare colt that at two was not mature to start riding, carefully and sensibly, of course and we waited some more months, but most are.
[QUOTE=Palm Beach;8467813]
AQHA is an association, not a breed.
Why are you still boarding at a barn that has so many lameness issues that you solicit opinions online?[/QUOTE]
Wait…what? AQHA is a pretty common way to refer to a registered quarter horse such as “For sale, 10 year old AQHA mare.” 
[QUOTE=Just Not Native;8467792]
I am new to the AQHA Breed and have only been boarding in a barn where they are the predominant breed for approx. 1 year.
I own an aged 24 TB mare who has been off for a few months - slowly, with vet and farrier trying to bring her to riding soundness.
Having moved from a jumper barn where you would expect soundness problems from time to time, I’m a little surprised at lameness issues on AQHA horses, that walk, trot and canter for their show lives (WP + EP).
From an outsider, looking in it seems that these horses (in general) are started early. Ridden in shows at age 2? Champions at age 3?
I realize there is some talk about this issue by members of the AQHA. Breeders and Trainers aim for money classes and if money is offered in a 2 year old class people will train and enter. Have read that if big money was moved to classes for older horses perhaps this would help decrease so much early training.
It amazes me that people buy horses with issues, on maintence supplements etc. seems normal for an AQHA sale.
I know this is a heated issue but would like to hear all sides. Of course the horses I am exposed to have top WP and EP sires.
But still manage to have lameness issues.
Is it the breeding, the early training, the “need” to get the horse off the breeder, early and into the trainers hands?
Where does one find AQHA horses that are vesatile and stand the test of time? Ranch Bred?
Many thanks, hope to see a friendly dissussion to educate.[/QUOTE]
It depends upon the breeder. The barn that I board at has a small scale breeding operation, she breeds 5-6 mares to top name stallions every year. She does sell off a few of her yearlings, but she is very selective to where they go. Most she keeps and then starts in Jan/Feb of their three year old year if their knees are closed up. Sadly, she is the exception, not the rule. Many are started in the fall of their yearling year so that they can be super broke for the two year old futurities. In order to be competitive you really need a dead broke two year old. It is super sad, but that is where the money is at. As long as there is big money in the two year old futurities the breeders and trainers will come. I do really wish that they would shift the money to three-six year old futurities so that these horses could experience long and successful show careers. Most of the BO’s broodmares are broodmares because they have issues and injuries. Most of them retired from their show careers by the time they were 7 or 8, if not sooner.
I have a well bred cutting/reining bred quarter horse ( peppy san badger, doc olena, charlie polite, doc solano) and he was started at 2. I bought him at 6. He is 24 - sound as sound can be! He jumps - trail rides - dressage - and I took lessons on him all last Summer. He is very grey though! I have had warmbloods, ottb’s ect and they all remained sound but I do give legend as a preventative and I wrap when I ride and I use bigeloil as a linament some of the time.
I , on the other hand , have lameness issues!
Horse’s knees close between 20 and 26 months.
[QUOTE=dog&horsemom;8472382]
I have a well bred cutting/reining bred quarter horse ( peppy san badger, doc olena, charlie polite, doc solano) and he was started at 2. I bought him at 6. He is 24 - sound as sound can be! He jumps - trail rides - dressage - and I took lessons on him all last Summer. He is very grey though! I have had warmbloods, ottb’s ect and they all remained sound but I do give legend as a preventative and I wrap when I ride and I use bigeloil as a linament some of the time.
I , on the other hand , have lameness issues![/QUOTE]
You’ve got a nice bred boy on your hands! My three also have Doc O’Lena on their papers 
[QUOTE=Draftmare;8472021]
Wait…what? AQHA is a pretty common way to refer to a registered quarter horse such as “For sale, 10 year old AQHA mare.” [/QUOTE]
Yes, in ads, with the AQHA meaning the horse is registered and has papers. When asked what breed, most people say quarter horse, or paint, or app, or whatever. But the OP was talking about WP and EP, and there are other stock breeds that perform in these disciplines, so why single out the registered quarter horses and not include the paints, apps, etc?
But I do think that training methods can go to extremes and cause problems. And then OP goes on to propose this may be caused by riding the horses as 2 yos, which, as discussed above, is not supported by studies.
[QUOTE=Bluey;8472401]
Horse’s knees close between 20 and 26 months.[/QUOTE]
You might want to read this article by Deb Bennett, PHd in which she says, that although the bones below the distal radius are fused by three years old, the bones ABOVE the distal radius are still fusing, most importantly the spine. In fact, some of the larger, weight-bearing bones are still fusing at 3-4 years. It’s an excellent article which starts out addressing the TB racing industry, but goes on to make the point that growth patterns apply to all breeds.
http://www.equinestudies.org/ranger_2008/ranger_piece_2008_pdf1.pdf
[QUOTE=downen;8472617]
You might want to read this article by Deb Bennett, PHd in which she says, that although the bones below the distal radius are fused by three years old, the bones ABOVE the distal radius are still fusing, most importantly the spine. In fact, some of the larger, weight-bearing bones are still fusing at 3-4 years. It’s an excellent article which starts out addressing the TB racing industry, but goes on to make the point that growth patterns apply to all breeds.
http://www.equinestudies.org/ranger_2008/ranger_piece_2008_pdf1.pdf[/QUOTE]
Yes, that is the old article, already have commented on that.
[QUOTE=downen;8472617]
You might want to read this article by Deb Bennett, PHd in which she says, that although the bones below the distal radius are fused by three years old, the bones ABOVE the distal radius are still fusing, most importantly the spine. In fact, some of the larger, weight-bearing bones are still fusing at 3-4 years. It’s an excellent article which starts out addressing the TB racing industry, but goes on to make the point that growth patterns apply to all breeds.
http://www.equinestudies.org/ranger_2008/ranger_piece_2008_pdf1.pdf[/QUOTE]
But is waiting for a horse to be fully mature to put it in work truly the right thing to do? So kids should not play sports until they are fully mature? Even if the kids don’t play sports, they still run around and play like banshees. I will go out on a limb and say that most studies show that active = healthy. Logic tells me that you need to be sensible and make sure the horse is fit for the workload you are asking it to do. Across all breeds, not just quarter horses.
[QUOTE=downen;8472617]
You might want to read this article by Deb Bennett, PHd in which she says, that although the bones below the distal radius are fused by three years old, the bones ABOVE the distal radius are still fusing, most importantly the spine. In fact, some of the larger, weight-bearing bones are still fusing at 3-4 years. It’s an excellent article which starts out addressing the TB racing industry, but goes on to make the point that growth patterns apply to all breeds.
http://www.equinestudies.org/ranger_2008/ranger_piece_2008_pdf1.pdf[/QUOTE]
You might want to do a little more research and see what other researchers have published on this subject. And also look at those who have taken this farther and looked at the bigger picture.
“Dr. Deb” is not the be-all, end-all authority on this subject. (I have become somewhat disillusioned with Dr. Deb and her pronouncements over the years.)
And Palm Beach (post #35) makes an excellent point.
[QUOTE=Just Not Native;8467792]
I am new to the AQHA Breed and have only been boarding in a barn where they are the predominant breed for approx. 1 year.
I own an aged 24 TB mare who has been off for a few months - slowly, with vet and farrier trying to bring her to riding soundness.
Having moved from a jumper barn where you would expect soundness problems from time to time, I’m a little surprised at lameness issues on AQHA horses, that walk, trot and canter for their show lives (WP + EP).
From an outsider, looking in it seems that these horses (in general) are started early. Ridden in shows at age 2? Champions at age 3?
I realize there is some talk about this issue by members of the AQHA. Breeders and Trainers aim for money classes and if money is offered in a 2 year old class people will train and enter. Have read that if big money was moved to classes for older horses perhaps this would help decrease so much early training.
It amazes me that people buy horses with issues, on maintence supplements etc. seems normal for an AQHA sale.
I know this is a heated issue but would like to hear all sides. Of course the horses I am exposed to have top WP and EP sires.
But still manage to have lameness issues.
Is it the breeding, the early training, the “need” to get the horse off the breeder, early and into the trainers hands?
Where does one find AQHA horses that are vesatile and stand the test of time? Ranch Bred?
Many thanks, hope to see a friendly dissussion to educate.[/QUOTE]
I bolded the part I specifically wanted to address. Also, please note I have only read the OP and no other posts.
My husband and his family have been showing in the AQHA and APHA associations since the 70s or 80s in halter and WP. Yes, like in all disciplines, some horses have lameness issues and require maintenance.
However, I grew up in the H/J world and I took DH to a few of my shows. Mostly local GHJA shows and a couple of “A” shows… DH looks around and he sees all these horses that clearly have a “hitch in their giddy-up” being kept up purely on maintenance programs and creative shoeing jobs.
He said this EXACT SAME THING TO ME. “It amaes me that people buy horses with these issues, on maintenance supplements, etc.”
So from one HJ rider to another, please get off your high horse and realize these issues are everywhere in the show world.
[QUOTE=NoSuchPerson;8472981]
You might want to do a little more research and see what other researchers have published on this subject. And also look at those who have taken this farther and looked at the bigger picture.
“Dr. Deb” is not the be-all, end-all authority on this subject. (I have become somewhat disillusioned with Dr. Deb and her pronouncements over the years.)
And Palm Beach (post #35) makes an excellent point.[/QUOTE]
I actually wasn’t presenting this source as a definitive answer to the issue, just another point of view. I do find it interesting that warmblood breeders focusing on jumpers and dressage normally wait longer to break and compete their horses. As with many of the topics here on COTH, however, I’m sure there will never be a consensus on this sort of thing.
OP, some people will agree with you one day and flame you the next! Stay, there are some good discussions here, once you learn which posters to bypass. 
I’ve seen very nice qh’s, good bone and nice feet. But some have the tiniest cannon bones coupled to itty-bitty hooves. Not sure why, I don’t know their breeding. Big bodies, little feet, doesn’t make for a sound horse in the long run.
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