AQHA and Lameness

I am new to the AQHA Breed and have only been boarding in a barn where they are the predominant breed for approx. 1 year.

I own an aged 24 TB mare who has been off for a few months - slowly, with vet and farrier trying to bring her to riding soundness.

Having moved from a jumper barn where you would expect soundness problems from time to time, I’m a little surprised at lameness issues on AQHA horses, that walk, trot and canter for their show lives (WP + EP).

From an outsider, looking in it seems that these horses (in general) are started early. Ridden in shows at age 2? Champions at age 3?

I realize there is some talk about this issue by members of the AQHA. Breeders and Trainers aim for money classes and if money is offered in a 2 year old class people will train and enter. Have read that if big money was moved to classes for older horses perhaps this would help decrease so much early training.

It amazes me that people buy horses with issues, on maintence supplements etc. seems normal for an AQHA sale.

I know this is a heated issue but would like to hear all sides. Of course the horses I am exposed to have top WP and EP sires.
But still manage to have lameness issues.

Is it the breeding, the early training, the “need” to get the horse off the breeder, early and into the trainers hands?

Where does one find AQHA horses that are vesatile and stand the test of time? Ranch Bred?

Many thanks, hope to see a friendly dissussion to educate.

AQHA is an association, not a breed.

Why are you still boarding at a barn that has so many lameness issues that you solicit opinions online?

I am making an observation. The barn I am at is not strictly Quarter Horses, it is close to my home and the care is good.

Is it not true that The AQHA and some members are concerned with the trend of training young horses?

[QUOTE=Just Not Native;8467858]
I am making an observation. The barn I am at is not strictly Quarter Horses, it is close to my home and the care is good.

Is it not true that The AQHA and some members are concerned with the trend of training young horses?[/QUOTE]

That is not so easy to answer, there is so much more to horses, here athletes, having injuries and which ones and why than meets the eye.

Horses, like humans, will get injured in all sort of ways just being alive.
Horses, like humans, depending on what they do that requires physical exertion, will have injuries from that exertion, just as pasture puffs will have the kinds of injuries that happen there.

Now, are you sure you can say this kind of training and competing is better or worse because of the kind it is and that is all?
Or the way they are trained and competed?
Or the kind of horse?
Or … ?

Break all that down and there are in depth answers for all of that.

We know today that starting training for any task, for humans and horses and any other, will make the ones so trained better and help them stay fit and sound better than starting later.
In horses, there are now enough studies showing that colts started as early two’s tend to end up with better bone, soft tissue and metabolic adaptations than those started later.

The trick to that is that you have to train right for every stage to achieve that.
If you take any horse and don’t know what you are doing and overdo it, no matter when you start their training, you may cause injuries to happen.
We know today that, when you start each horse, as long as your program fits that horse, they should train to their best, which is the goal of any training.

Many decades ago, in our gymnastic team, most of us started training seriously at 8/9 years old.
Who was the best heads and shoulders over the rest?
The trainer’s girl, that had started in the gym as a 4/5 year old.
She was best because of her training and talent, but also because she had been growing already into it, her body as it matured already adapting and refining her talent.

When starting horses early, that is what we are doing, giving their growing bodies and mind the tools to learn to be the best they are going to be at what they were bred for.

Lets talk about injuries and rehab and any needed maintenance.
You can’t believe how much more we know today about all of that.
Training and conditioning and maintaining is a veritable science today, trainers and vets right on top of it all with tools that were not available just a few years ago.
You can’t believe how much more we can do for anyone competing, injured or in rehab.

Unless you have some way to compare between barns, you know the whole training, competing and vet history of all those horses, you really don’t know which barn was doing the best for their horses, which horses may have problems.
The reasons, without knowing any more, are a mere guess, generally a biased one if we don’t know the discipline we are being critical about.

Then, lets see, the type of horse, that too enters the picture here.
You will stress a larger, lean type TB if you expect it to train and perform against horses bred for short, athletic bursts.

You may end up with a very sick horse if it is built and trained for short distances and you expect it to now run a 1 1/2 mile against TBs.

What that shows you is that, when you have the right horse for the task at hand, train it correctly for that task, is talented and performs that task well and the lucky stars align for everyone, those horses, that is many that compete, will do well.

Two years ago, they looked at the performance horses in the NFR, the National Finals Rodeo.
Those are horses that have spent years training and hauling down the road and competing and qualified by money earned on them that year to be at the top.

The median age of those was 17 1/2 years old and more than half were over 20.
Those are not the exception, at the lower levels of competition in many disciplines, there are many horses that were started young, now older, sound and happy horses competing at whatever level their talent, training and in their older years less intense competing permits them.

My point, I don’t think it is valid to question in a negative way a whole group, with no more to go by than the OP brought to the table here.

Thank you Bluey for bringing up very interesting points! It helps me understand the whole picture a little more.

[QUOTE=Just Not Native;8467792]

Having moved from a jumper barn where you would expect soundness problems from time to time, I’m a little surprised at lameness issues on AQHA horses, that walk, trot and canter for their show lives (WP + EP). [/QUOTE]

I am confused by this part of your post.

Are you saying WP (walk, trot, and canter) should be “easy” and not cause lameness issues? Whereas jumping is “hard” and will cause lameness issues from time to time?

Maybe you can clarify what you mean here.

[QUOTE=Just Not Native;8467792]
From an outsider, looking in it seems that these horses (in general) are started early. Ridden in shows at age 2? Champions at age 3? [/QUOTE]

Racing TB’s are started just as early.

[QUOTE=Just Not Native;8467792]
It amazes me that people buy horses with issues, on maintence supplements etc. seems normal for an AQHA sale. [/QUOTE]

I’ll use myself as more of an example here, since my primary discipline is barrel racing.

If I were looking to buy a finished barrel racing horse, I actually would have a harder time believing the horse didn’t need some sort of maintenance. Barrel racing is hard on a horse’s body and most need some assistance. When the race comes down to a thousandth of a second, you need your horse feeling 100% in order for them to perform well.

I think all the things you are talking about are pretty subjective.
What you consider to be an “issue”, the next person may not consider to be an issue at all.

As far as maintenance supplements, that’s going to be subjective too. Even if my horses don’t have issues, I’m going to have them on pentosan or Adequan; as a preventative. To me, helping the joints long-term is important. Some people would never consider putting a horse on those unless it had problems.

So it’s really a broad range of things you are talking about.

Let me ask you this: How do you KNOW that a horse has lameness issues because they were started early, or because they were genetically prone to it anyway?

You don’t.

I bought my horse Red when he was 6-years-old. Pretty much a fat, green-broke spoiled pasture horse. Did mostly general riding the first year, then introduced him to barrels when he was 7. Didn’t start going really hard until he was 8.

He started having lameness problems early when he was 7. Turns out he has heel pain on both front feet, most likely from an idiopathic bursitis. Slight wedge pads with shoes did the trick. Then later that fall, found out he had a catching right stifle. Injected the following spring but didn’t really help. THEN discovered he had a fusing right hock all along, very advanced for his age. By age 9, it is fully fused. Pretty uncommon.

Now … if he had been barrel raced at a young age, I guarantee that people would think he had his legs run off too soon and that’s why he has lameness problems.

But that’s not the case. He was just prone to it, anyway.

So how do you tell a horse has “gone lame” from being used at a young age, to just simply because that was going to be the way anyway for the horse?

You can’t.

It’s funny, because I would much more expect something like the OP from someone who moved to a H/J or dressage barn from a western barn. The caveat being that I haven’t been around as many western horses that competed at high levels as I have H/J or dressage horses, so maybe the chronic lameness and maintenance programs are more symptomatic of heavy competition campaigns of any discipline and not so much the discipline itself.

AQHA in general have craptastic conformation.

[QUOTE=cowboymom;8468141]
AQHA in general have craptastic conformation.[/QUOTE]

I certainly do not think it is fair to categorize an entire breed as “crappy”.

I have two AQHA geldings. (One of which has the lameness problems I described above). Conformationally, I think they both look pretty darn nice.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/r_beau/2014%20Horse%20Pictures/Shotgun0110-17-14_zps135efc7e.jpg
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/r_beau/2014%20Horse%20Pictures/2014-07-26MissouriRiverClassicplayday051-Copy_zpsa651f848.jpg

And I thought my aunt’s horse was a very beautiful AQHA, that I got to ride this summer.
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/r_beau/2015%20Horse%20Pictures/IMG_5483_zpsolcc6w6d.jpg

So, Just Not Native and cowboymom, what did you all do this morning? Get together and decide to troll the QH owners in the western forum? :lol:

Beau159, the grey horse wouldn’t happen to be a Jackie Bee horse would he? He looks almost identical to mine who is Jackie Bee and Sonny Dee Bar.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v15/CarrieS/Smarty/smarty%201.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v15/CarrieS/Smarty/Smarty.jpg

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/smarty+wins+three

This guy is pretty sound but does have some lumps and bumps on him. He was a barrel horse before he was turned into a dressage horse. I don’t have alot to go on as far as history prior to previous owner. But, he a really cool horse!

I wouldn’t lump all Quarter Horses as lame or unsound. Some of my best horses have been quarter horses and sound as they come with no issues.

Good eye! He’s actually Two Eyed Jack and Jackie Bee on the top , and more Jackie Bee on the bottom.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/two+eyed+romeo+jack
Really lovely boy. Wish I could have kept him for myself!

I believe it is the head. The Jackie Bee’s have the same face and head! lol I absolutely love them. They are kind, willing and will try their heart out for you no matter what.

[QUOTE=Just Not Native;8467792]
I am new to the AQHA Breed and have only been boarding in a barn where they are the predominant breed for approx. 1 year.

I own an aged 24 TB mare who has been off for a few months - slowly, with vet and farrier trying to bring her to riding soundness.[/QUOTE]

OP is admittedly inexperienced, and trying to paint an entire association with one brush from one barn. If there is that much lameness going on, including OP’s horse, I’d look to the barn management and not the breed association.

Sorry, I’m not a troll and WOW, I won’t be coming back to COTH.

[QUOTE=Just Not Native;8469429]
Sorry, I’m not a troll and WOW, I won’t be coming back to COTH.[/QUOTE]

I did not accuse you of being a troll. I joked about it because both you and cowboymom made posts that most anybody could tell would get some people riled up.

JOKE - That’s what the little laughing emoticon after a comment means.

But hey, if you want to go away based on that, it’s your choice.

It’s ok, I got it in the spirit it was meant, my post was a drive-by b/c I got interrupted and then forgot I posted it!

I see so much whacked out QH conformation that it comes as a matter of course to hear lameness and QH in the same sentence.

I do believe that some barns (whatever their discipline) can have higher overall rates of lameness than other barns in the same discipline, if the lameness is related to how the horses are being trained, ridden, and managed. This would be particularly true if most of the barn was in the same discipline, and using the same coach or trainer, farrier, vet, eetc.

There are some forms of lameness that are more prevalent in TBDs and some that are more prevalent in QH, due both to genetics and conformation.

There different forms and causes of lameness that show up in different disciplines, which can be related to over-all chronic career stress, to the chance of acute injury, and to exaggerated forms of riding that go against the actual biomechanical balance of the horse. Some things that look like lameness can be in fact just a deliberately-taught mannered way of going, and not an organic injury (what English riders call “rein lame”).

It’s true that the QH is often started under saddle very young, at 2 or 3, well before the skeleton is mature. But so are all OTTBs, which means almost all TBs in circulation. The work they do is different, of course, and that would mean different risks for future health.

On the other hand, warmbloods are typically not started until they are 4 or 5, but they can still easily be broken down in a few years by bad riding in dressage or jumping.

So the OP may well have landed in a barn that has higher than average rates of lameness for the discipline. In that case, there might be some valuable conclusions to be quietly drawn about cause and effect, and if the OP is interested in these topics, might find it interesting to read Deb Bennett’s book on functional conformation to see why this might be so.

Another good resource is http://hoovesblog.com/ which explores biomechanics as well. The blog has been inactive for a while but has great archives and is still accessible.

These resources might answer some questions about how and why “just going walk/trot/canter” can lead to soundness issues, in any discipline.

In any discipline you will find particular barns or trainers that seem to have a higher rate of injuries and lameness. I would say their is not a breed or discipline that notoriously cripples horses.
The way I see the vet care I do on my reining horses goes like this, nothing I’m asking my horses to do is natural. Horses don’t slide 40’, do turns or run circles quickly in a small arena in the wild, so with that in mind, I will do absolutely everything I can to help them, keep them comfortable, and prevent injuries. That may mean injecting joints, using counter irritants, administering adequan or legend etc. I know many people who use magna wave, salt water therapy, the vibrating board they stand on (I can’t remember the name gosh darn it). Point being, my horses are going to wear down physically because of the job they have, we could have a perfectly sound horse that doesn’t have a hair out of place if he was a pasture puff. I also think that conformation plays a huge role in a horses long term soundness, we breed for the best horses and know which horse is built for the job and how hard that horse can be pushed. I also can accept when a horse (who can be bred to rein 50 ways to Sunday) just isn’t going to do it. Physically it’s hard for them and there’s nothing wrong with that. You find what that horse can do.

I hate the stigma that performance QH’s are crippled, abused, drugged, fake, tortured for being started early etc. walk through my barn and tell me if you see a crippled or drugged horse in the bunch. You won’t.

[QUOTE=TheHunterKid90;8470841]
In any discipline you will find particular barns or trainers that seem to have a higher rate of injuries and lameness. I would say their is not a breed or discipline that notoriously cripples horses.
The way I see the vet care I do on my reining horses goes like this, nothing I’m asking my horses to do is natural. Horses don’t slide 40’, do turns or run circles quickly in a small arena in the wild, so with that in mind, I will do absolutely everything I can to help them, keep them comfortable, and prevent injuries. That may mean injecting joints, using counter irritants, administering adequan or legend etc. I know many people who use magna wave, salt water therapy, the vibrating board they stand on (I can’t remember the name gosh darn it). Point being, my horses are going to wear down physically because of the job they have, we could have a perfectly sound horse that doesn’t have a hair out of place if he was a pasture puff. I also think that conformation plays a huge role in a horses long term soundness, we breed for the best horses and know which horse is built for the job and how hard that horse can be pushed. I also can accept when a horse (who can be bred to rein 50 ways to Sunday) just isn’t going to do it. Physically it’s hard for them and there’s nothing wrong with that. You find what that horse can do.

I hate the stigma that performance QH’s are crippled, abused, drugged, fake, tortured for being started early etc. walk through my barn and tell me if you see a crippled or drugged horse in the bunch. You won’t.[/QUOTE]

One horse is anecdote, not data, I know, but here it is, one of many, many such performance horses out there, if one cares to look in many barns with such horses, without preconceptions:

www.commandalena.com

He is 23 and still showing and being competitive and sound and healthy and happy.