"Are Boy Points Real?" chronicle article

[Texarkana]

@kirbydog

the rider is not being judged in hunters. the horse and the round are. the rider is not being judged in hunters. the horse and the round are. one more time for clarity. the rider is not being judged in hunters. the horse and the round are.
if it were true that the tall long legged boy/man was going to be the winner in a hunter class due to his body type, i would never ever have won anything.

Yes. I know the rider is not judged in a hunter class. Everyone knows that. I meant “hunter rider” in the general sense of the discipline. Equitation (or at least the equitation classes we are discussing) falls under the umbrella of the hunter/jumpers.

There are no absolutes, either. Nowhere did I say “every tall, long-legged boy wins.” All I said is they meet our subjective standard of what the ideal rider looks like, so their first impression when they enter the ring can be more favorable than someone who doesn’t meet that standard.

[kirbydog]

Actually, you are wrong in your assumption that “everybody” know that. Go on FB and read how people rip Tori Covin apart, because they don’t like her so called “eq” while she’s out there winning an international hunter derby. Tori, is one of the best riding young people out there. And BTW, she won the Maclay.
Equitation may fall under the umbrella, but it is so very different. It is apples to oranges. So you are wrong in your assumption that when a man/boy walks into the hunter ring, he is given a favorable bias. Very wrong.
FWIW, in the hunter ring, the bias usually goes toward the famous rider, whatever their gender and physic may be.

[Texarkana]

@kirbydog

Actually, you are wrong in your assumption that “everybody” know that. Go on FB and read how people rip Tori Covin apart, because they don’t like her so called “eq” while she’s out there winning an international hunter derby. Tori, is one of the best riding young people out there. And BTW, she won the Maclay.
Equitation may fall under the umbrella, but it is so very different. It is apples to oranges. So you are wrong in your assumption that when a man/boy walks into the hunter ring, he is given a favorable bias. Very wrong.
FWIW, in the hunter ring, the bias usually goes toward the famous rider, whatever their gender and physic may be.

I did not say a man/boy walks into the hunter ring and is given a favorable bias.

You misinterpreted my initial statement because you thought I meant “hunter” in the specific sense.

[kirbydog]

i think my posts are getting crossed between you and blue heron that person gave me this reply, which was completely untrue:

@blue_heron

But you’re saying that the difference here was that the rider was a boy. Not that the horse was a better mover, etc.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

I must add I have always heard this called “Penis Points,” and every time I see this thread I wish CoTH had the, ahem, balls to use that term.

[Peggy]

@Impractical_Horsewoman

I must add I have always heard this called “Penis Points,” and every time I see this thread I wish CoTH had the, ahem, balls to use that term.

The first time I heard this referenced was as penis points. By Archie Cox.

[RAyers]

Amen, brother.

[RAyers]

And how does that show there is a bias? It has long been understood that men dominate the top of the sport mostly because once they start and are committed to it as a boy, they tend to sticks with it. Two of your own articles actually discuss that directly.

And since jumpers and eventing is not subjective nor judged on equitation, how is that indicative of a bias?

[alicen]

Once upon a time, at a barn where I worked, one of the boarders bought her 7 yr. old daughter a pony. After 1 yr. of riding I marveled at the kids automatic release and steady at-the-girth leg over jumps. She seemed a natural with a less than easy to ride mount. She expressed an interest in wanting to show so Mom started her in lessons. I observed a lesson one day. The girl was instructed to “freeze and make a pretty picture at the top of the jump”. Need I say more?

[alicen]

https://www.fei.org/eventing/rankings

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

But succeeding even in an objective sport isn’t just walking in and doing the activity, as I’m sure you know–it has to do with financial support, of course, access to training, mentorship, and so forth. In horse sports more so than other activities, and the point many women are making in this thread is that for women without deep financial backing, it can be harder to gain access to such mentorship and support (even if men may experience ignorant comments and prejudice about being in a “women’s sport” outside of the activity itself).

In eventing, as a side note, in the UK and Commonwealth nations there is much more access to government financial support and that may be why you see so many women succeeding in that arena.

[paw]

@RAyers

And how does that show there is a bias? It has long been understood that men dominate the top of the sport mostly because once they start and are committed to it as a boy, they tend to sticks with it.

And the girls don’t? Seriously?

Gender bias in subjective horse sports is real.

[Willesdon]

[quote=“Impractical_Horsewoman, post:191, topic:779608, full:true”]…
In eventing, as a side note, in the UK and Commonwealth nations there is much more access to government financial support and that may be why you see so many women succeeding in that arena.
[/quote]

Because I’m always good for a tangent, in the UK there is National Lottery Funding, not really Government money, but it is available only to elite riders. Funding is competitive between sports and within a sport and it depends on evident success. The UK Government really doesn’t have any interest in the Equestrian Industry, unlike in Eire. In other parts of Europe there is more Government funding, directly from the State in France, using a betting monopoly to obtain the money, in Italy top riders are often part of the military, etc. The world as a whole is not so different from the USA in that participation in equestrian sport is expensive and it is difficult for professionals to make a living. What is different in Europe, perhaps, is that horses are more “every day” and are certainly not as inherently expensive.

Horse culture in the UK is now substantially female. The Pony Club is predominantly girls and branches work hard to attract and retain boys. Riding schools are full of small girls trotting around the arena. Even professional grooms are now predominantly women. But for all horse owners there are multiple activities available, often with the same horse, that are attractive to both sexes. Eventing and showjumping, both Olympic disciplines, have nearly equal numbers of women and men competing, dressage far fewer men. Having said that, the proportion of men increases as the competition levels go up, so maybe there is something in the self-selection bias of sticking with something one’s good at, winning rather than taking part. In foxhunting, the proportion of women to men tends to vary according to day of the week. Polo, team chasing, point to point, racing all probably have more men than women engaged. Professional women jockeys are a fairly new thing and it took many years to break down the bias of the Owners against them, more than the Trainers.

Margaret Hough was the first woman to win Badminton Horse Trials in 1954. That was the first year that women were permitted to take part in such a “dangerous” sport, just emerging from it’s military roots.

Pat Smythe was the first woman to win an Olympic Showjumping medal in 1956, the first year that women were allowed to compete. Previous years she had to hand over her horse for a man to ride in the team. When competing with huge success in the 1950s across Europe, beaten male riders were likely to run to the Show Secretary and demand that the rules be changed to stop a woman from taking part.

I believe The Cresta Run in St Moritz originally banned women from running on grounds of risk, but really because women beat the men too often. Today women have to sign a waiver that includes a confirmation that they are not pregnant before they run.

Times change, social biases shift.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

That’s really interesting! Thank you for that perspective, and not really a tangent, since it’s interesting to compare how bias plays out in different countries!

[Jealoushe]

Being the “ horse girl” was most certainly an issue for me. Made my entire school experience a living hell. City kids who didn’t “get” it. I wasn’t even over the top horsey, they just knew I had a horse.

[Jealoushe]

@FitToBeTied

So how big a deal is “boys points” really in a sport that is dominated by women in every phase (e.g., number of riders, trainers, etc.)?

Ooof

Imagine a woman walking into a male dominated work force and getting a promotion simply because she had tits.

Heads would roll. What’s the big deal right?

Would also never happen because we all know ( we women anyways) that men start at 10/10 in everything and lose points whereas women start at 0 and have to earn that 10 in whatever it may be.

[Mouse_amp_Bay]

@RAyers

One thing is clear, as time has progressed over these intervening 40 years, the business model of the h/j industry has moved from an amateur driven sport to a professional, wealthy female participant dominated sport governed by organizers who seek to maximize horse show profit dollars.

Let’s posit that this observation is correct.

Have you ever wondered why, in this female participant dominated sport, top FEI international show jumping rankings skew male? As does top eventing?

If the the base is 80% female, why are the FEI rankings not 80% female as well? Why do the boys get the owners, the backing, the syndicates and the horse flesh to make it happen?

https://heelsdownmag.com/why-arent-more-women-on-the-podium/

[Jealoushe]

No the girls are off crying in the corner apparently because we aren’t brave or dedicated enough to be at the top of the class🙄

[2bayboys]

@Mouse_amp_Bay

@RAyers

It has long been understood that men dominate the top of the sport mostly because once they start and are committed to it as a boy, they tend to sticks with it.

I believe @RAyers already answered this above. Boys are just so much more [committed, tough, talented, driven, fill in your own word here.]

And this has “long been understood.”

[Texarkana]

@2bayboys

@Mouse_amp_Bay

@RAyers

It has long been understood that men dominate the top of the sport mostly because once they start and are committed to it as a boy, they tend to sticks with it.

I believe @RAyers already answered this above. Boys are just so much more [committed, tough, talented, driven, fill in your own word here.]

And this doesn’t mean young women aren’t all those things, too.

But to be a young man in a sport dominated by young women, there is probably additional motivation keeping you there. You are going against what society suggests you should do, and being different is hard for all kids.

This doesn’t mean young women don’t experience flack also. But being a young man in a sport dominated by young women makes them especially vulnerable, so I imagine something has to make it worth it to them.