"Are Boy Points Real?" chronicle article

[Benchmark]

I can’t address every aspect of such a nuanced topic without writing a novel, but I feel obligated to at least share my general perspective and experiences as a male AA rider.

I was the definition of function over form as a kid/teen, so I didn’t win much, but I had some natural feel and I was athletic/strong without getting in the horse’s way. The horses always seemed to like me and I’ve always been obsessed with them.

I do think being a boy helped me as a young rider, especially with males I wanted to learn from. As has been stated, males (especially really horse-addicted males) are SO FAR outside the norm that of course we want to help each other… honestly what kind of person wouldn’t? It definitely helped with many women too.

It also did not help with many other women within the horse world; definitely not most, but more than a few. Was that because they either consciously or subconsciously resented me, at least in the short term, for my gender? Based on how vengeful some of these posts come across, I don’t think that’s a stretch.

There has probably been a mix of both effects in judging. Some were probably more lenient, some were probably more critical, most were probably neutral… I have no idea.

It did not help with my classmates, family, friends… people just think it’s weird. That makes it SO HARD as a teenager to justify the expenses to parents that really love you, but really wish they were watching you play varsity football/basketball. They came around as I got older (and started paying my own bills), but that I always felt like I was swimming upstream and still have some baggage from that. I understand this is not an exclusively male problem.

As a male rider, I’ve always felt like the overarching undercurrent was generally a marginal net positive in the equestrian world and a significant net negative in the non-equestrian world.

Please don’t take the click bait and crucify the small group of men in this sport. The vast majority of us really are trying to do better.

[HipNo34]

@Jealoushe

Being the “ horse girl” was most certainly an issue for me. Made my entire school experience a living hell. City kids who didn’t “get” it. I wasn’t even over the top horsey, they just knew I had a horse.

Because of this, I learned some time around sixth grade to stop talking about horses.

I didn’t realize what a good job I must’ve done concealing it until this past summer. A girl I went to high school with is now a horse show mom. I ran into her at a show and she asked me if I rode when we were in school. She had absolutely no clue that I did or that I had a horse at the time. Like yeah, remember how y’all couldn’t take off the Friday before prom without losing your prom privileges? I got out of school that day because I was going to a show. Suckers!

Actually, upon considering that last sentence … I was shocked she recognized me and now realize it was right after my name was announced

[Midge]

@FitToBeTied

I looked up past winners of the Medal Mclay equitation and since 1990, only six boys have won. So in 31 years, that’s only 20%. So if the “boys Points” is such a big deal, shouldn’t that percentage be higher? In the 30 years before 1990, ten boys won, so 33%. That would seem to indicate that if “boys points” are a thing it is waning.

Wait. How can you possibly draw this conclusion with the information presented???

[RAyers]

If you read the articles listed that discuss why the top levels have many more men, you will see that is has nothing to do with some nefarious patriarchal conspiracy. It is simply how priorities and goals change as humans mature. It does not dismiss motivated, culpable women. It is simply the truth in terms of the athletes and what they are willing to do.

If it was some male conspiracy, then I should have been placing much better when I competed at the FEI levels decades ago since I was a minority guy at those levels. That was not the case. I simply didn’t have the drive that Boyd Martin, David O’Connor, John Staples, and others had. And even men choose to drop out as their life priorities change.

Arguing about men at the top levels is a tangential discussion to the concept of scoring in “big eq.”

[coffeehag]

I find it fascinating that throughout this entire thread, even when presented with tangible evidence, you can’t admit that you yourself carry bias and that you might, just a little bit, actually be wrong.

[coffeehag]

@Benchmark

It did not help with my classmates, family, friends… people just think it’s weird. That makes it SO HARD as a teenager to justify the expenses to parents that really love you, but really wish they were watching you play varsity football/basketball. They came around as I got older (and started paying my own bills), but that I always felt like I was swimming upstream and still have some baggage from that. I understand this is not an exclusively male problem.

As a male rider, I’ve always felt like the overarching undercurrent was generally a marginal net positive in the equestrian world and a significant net negative in the non-equestrian world.

I think this is such valuable insight Benchmark. Similarly to you, there was little parental motivation to show up to horse shows when they (ex athletes themselves) would much rather be sitting down to cheer on a volleyball game.

To your point, of late, I think the world as a whole has come around much more to equestrian athletes, especially with boatloads of female celebrities “coming out” as horse girls. While there’s a host of male celebrities also existing in the equestrian space, most seem to migrate to the Western world. There’s still work to do to make being a horse person a point of pride

[RAyers]

Where is the tangible evidence? I see weak observational statistics and anecdotal association.

The numbers presented at this point show no statistical relevance or significance cspable of tangibly showing bias.

[endlessclimb]

@RAyers

tangibly showing bias

Well, except that a judge flat admitted it.

[GraceLikeRain]

@RAyers

you will see that is has nothing to do with some nefarious patriarchal conspiracy.

A privileged white male calling the patriarchy a conspiracy in 2022 is so embarrassing

[wanderlust]

@kirbydog

FWIW, in the hunter ring, the bias usually goes toward the famous rider, whatever their gender and physic may be.

150% agreed here. I call it the “Hunt Tosh overscore.” But I do hate to point out that right now, the famous riders getting the positive bias are… wait for it… men. Hunt, Scott Stewart, etc. I was about to add John French to that list but I’ve not seen him win a big class that wasn’t completely deserved.

[Trekkie]

Here are the World Champion Hunter rider professional national standings based on points for 2022.

In a sport overwhelmingly dominated by women.
Interesting.

1 Nick Haness

2 Geoffrey Hesslink

3 Scott Stewart

4 Amanda Steege

5 Christopher Payne

6 Michael Britt-Leon

7 Hunt Tosh

8 Elizabeth Boyd

9 Jimmy Torano

10 Jef Lauwers

[wanderlust]

Anecdotally, I first saw Nick Haness ride probably 15-20 years ago when he was 15ish and doing the junior hunters at what must have been either Menlo or Pebble Beach. I just happened to be riding back past that ring and had to stop to watch. To this day it was one of the most magical hunter rounds I’ve ever seen, and I am not at all surprised to see him at the top of that list these many years later.

As for the rest of that list… Scott, Michael and Tosh have owners who provide them some really phenomenal horses over and over and over. Tori was at the top of that list when she was riding for Betsee Parker but now Hunt and sometimes Scott get those horses instead. Would be really nice to see Amanda and some of the other top women have loyal owners like that.

[Trekkie]

And this bit of data: In the United States,
gender breakdown amongst ALL equestrians is as follows–
Equestrian Statistics By Gender

77.4% of equestrians are women and 22.6% of equestrians are men .

This INCLUDES western disciplines, foxhunting, racing, etc which can be generally more heavy in male riders. And thus one would infer that the English disciplines especially of dressage and show hunter would be far below that 22.6%.
Therefore to see so many male riders featured at the TOP of the sport implies an interesting phenomenon, perhaps maybe even that they are favored in some way, as through opportunities, support, judging bias, etc. This is not to say they are not excellent riders, but many many women may be just as excellent and are getting overlooked or not given the opportunities or support to be at the top consistently. Food for thought, all of it for sure.

[HipNo34]

I caught a couple rounds of a handy on the Desert Holiday livestream the other day and, in terms of smoothness, Nick Haness’s turns were like night and day with the other trips. I thought to myself “he’s winning this in the turns” (admittedly after uncharitably thinking he was going to get Name Points as he was the only rider I recognized in the handful of trips I saw).

[wanderlust]

The name points are a weird thing. It’s like when you have a name like Hunt or Scott, the expectation is that you’ll be sitting on something uber-fancy that should win, if you don’t majorly screw up. And then when they show up on something that maybe isn’t as fancy as expected, as long as they don’t majorly screw up, they still get the points as if it was the fanciest one in the class.

Yet some of the really big names don’t get those big name points consistently. Like if John French wins, you know it’s because he put down the best trip on the nicest horse. Same with Nick, too. Don’t get me wrong, I’d give my first born to ride as well as any of them, but it’s a weird kind of east coast favoritism.

[RAyers]

And the judge, being a woman, is biased towards men then? Is that what you are saying,

[wanderlust]

That’s exactly what she is saying. Did you not read the article being referenced? Sue Ashe flat-out stated that boys ride better.

I don’t know why any of this is so hard for you to wrap your head around. Surely in this day and age you must have to take training on unconscious and implicit bias at your work. None of this is made up, it is an actual sociological phenomenon no matter how much you may try to argue against it. Even in women-dominated professional fields, there is strong gender bias in the favor of men.

And it turns out that the people who think there is little to no gender bias against women, or that it has been resolved by adding more women to a previously male-dominated field, are actually the people most likely to continue to perpetuate gender bias.

[endlessclimb]

That’s not what I am saying - that is what the judge said, nearly verbatim.

From the article:

Edgette: “You see 30 girls in the same blue jacket on a bay horse with a big, beautiful head, then a guy comes in and it’s like ‘Oh, OK.’ I’m not even talking conscious bias.”

Ashe: “Once [boys] get their teeth sunk into it, and they stay with it, normally they are the better riders. I’m sorry.”

Ashe: “By the time you’ve seen 160 of them, it takes a lot of energy to keep paying attention. If at 165th a boy comes in and starts out with a lick and nails it, you get so excited you can’t stand it. You sit up in your seat and say, ‘Hallelujah.’”

Ashe: “I sort of feel that while we don’t lean towards the boy, when a boy comes in and lays one down, you’re 1,000% in their favor.”

More: Ashe pointed out that it takes endurance to judge a huge class, and boys do indeed stand out.

[2bayboys]

@RAyers

And the judge, being a woman, is biased towards men then? Is that what you are saying,

Surely you are familiar with the many many studies about gender bias in the classroom, where in the early years the teachers are predominantly women by a very large margin? And yet, boys are called on more often and given more attention, and their behavior is more often excused as “just being boys” while the expectation for girls is to be quiet and compliant.

And since you’re a scientist and are obviously interested in this topic based on your numerous posts here, I just know you’ve kept abreast of the countless studies that address gender bias in your field of work. I can link to some if you’d like to do some research on the issue.

I’m not sure why it’s hard to imagine that implicit (and explicit) bias exists elsewhere, including this sport? You’re not going to find peer reviewed studies to prove it because the industry is simply not important enough in the larger scheme of things to merit the time and funding.

[Rubyroo]

@kirbydog

I gave an example of something different.

To be fair, your example of something different is actually what a hunter should look like. Your example is only different than the rest of the horses in the class, which according to your description, all fall below the standard.