"Are Boy Points Real?" chronicle article

[Rel6]

And what is your basis for saying these arguments, some of which were literally made by lawyers, fail legal veracity?

I’m a lawyer. If a client came to me and said she was experiencing gender bias in the workplace, and someone in an authority position to her said during a deposition that “normally [men] are the better employees, I’m sorry” and that “while they don’t lean towards the male employee, when they do a good job they are 1000% in their favor,” I would be ecstatic and expect a pretty swift settlement offer from the other side. Those are the kind of explicit statements of bias you rarely see, even in strong Title VII discrimination cases.

So please, take your “fail legal veracity” elsewhere.

[Jackie_Cochran]

One time at my job when they promoted a particularly unqualified male to be a supervisor I went to the department manager and told him that as far as I could see that all a male had to have to qualify for management was dangly bits between their hind legs.

My next performance report was downgraded due to me being blunt and outspoken.

After many months that male decided he was not the supervisor type at all, and then it went to another male over women who were much more experienced and qualified.

The dangly bits between the hind legs outranked every other qualification.

And it NEVER occurred to any of the men promoted to management that without those dangly bits between their hind legs they would never have been promoted to the management track.

[MadTrotter]

The quotes in the article are examples of those who are emboldened enough to say the quiet part OUT LOUD. Countless others harbor these biases quietly. The clustering of wins in Big Eq by males even though females predominate that has been cited is more evidence. Not to knock Big Eq, but this isn’t a question of raw athletic power. It’s an aesthetic preference.

[2bayboys]

@Rel6

And what is your basis for saying these arguments, some of which were literally made by lawyers, fail legal veracity?

I’m a lawyer. If a client came to me and said she was experiencing gender bias in the workplace, and someone in an authority position to her said during a deposition that “normally [men] are the better employees, I’m sorry” and that “while they don’t lean towards the male employee, when they do a good job they are 1000% in their favor,” I would be ecstatic and expect a pretty swift settlement offer from the other side. Those are the kind of explicit statements of bias you rarely see, even in strong Title VII discrimination cases.

So please, take your “fail legal veracity” elsewhere.

I was hoping an actual lawyer would weigh in once the scientist opined on legal matters.

[Rel6]

For all we know, other lawyers have. And other scientists! We just don’t all feel the need to whip out the advanced degrees and waive them around like that makes us the definitive voice of god on a topic.

[kirbydog]

Of you ever had the patience to sit through a big, boring 3’ low hunter class or a 3’ green class, or. 2’6" warm up, most of them are, at best, average

[vxf111]

More than one lawyer HAS been actively involved in this conversation Including ones who regularly litigate Title VII cases.

[2bayboys]

@kirbydog

Of you ever had the patience to sit through a big, boring 3’ low hunter class or a 3’ green class, or. 2’6" warm up, most of them are, at best, average

This just confirms to me that the vast majority of participants at “A” shows are just background actors that add fill and color contrast to the star players who are predetermined in the opening credits.

[vxf111]

As it turns out… there is research into implicit and explicit bias in equestrian sport…

29018514.pdf

Women, Men and Horses: Looking at the Equestrian World through a "Gender Lens"

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/273760511_Gender_and_Sports_within_the_Equine_Sector_-_A_Comparative_Perspective

I just found this through googling, not through any magic process. Anyone who is begging “where’s the data to support this” could have found the same. I googled “implicit gender bias sports equestrian.” I didn’t come up with some uber creative search string a professional researcher couldn’t have devined.

I’m sure there are other (and probably better) papers behind paywalls I can’t access.

But this has been studied and studies do seem to bear out that there are implicit/explicit biases towards men in equestrian sports. That first paper is pretty much exactly on point.

[sportyspicepony]

Omg thank you!!! I can’t believe I didn’t even try googling this but I just assumed there wouldn’t be anything!!!

[coffeehag]

@RAyers

Ironically, I have to have documented sexual bias protocols in place with the NIH. If you look at my student demographics, I maintain a 50:50 student population even in male dominated programs. My clinical research reflects a demographic equal to the national sexual demographic.

Congratulations, you’re doing the bare minimum! If anything, your attitude throughout this whole thread has been proof positive that you can do the literal bare minimum and still be considered successful.

You have been given data numerous times. You’ve had articles with legitimate data cited at you (which, I’d posit, you didn’t bother to read). Your inability to admit the bias you hold is incredibly concerning, and the childish way you’ve thus far dug in your heels about how you couldn’t possibly be wrong because you are a scientist is downright embarrassing and highly indicative of how engrained gender bias is.

[MadTrotter]

It’s super frustrating because it’s a common canard that hiring/admission quotas are the magic bullet to slaying sexism, racism, etc when in fact it is merely step 1. It’s one thing to be in the room, important yes…it’s another thing to be the one yielding power and making decisions. Lots of great citations here for our resident go-getting, driven men: https://harvardjlg.com/2016/11/reconsidering-the-remedy-of-gender-quotas/

[Ponyplusaninch]

YUP.

I get asked all the ducking time to “fix” companies’ diversity hiring problems, and I’m like “yeah OK I can hire in 20% more rose gold narwhals, but if you don’t actually have the equity and inclusion part figured out internally my work is worth nothing.”

Huge, huge pet peeve of mine when a company just puts “diversity” in hiring and then does diddly squat elsewhere except maybe a post on MLK day or participates in a pride parade. Anything else is deemed far too controversial/political.

Reading this whole thread and article has been most illuminating. And disheartening. I had at point thought equestrian sport was (mostly) devoid of sexism, but I was proved wrong.

[ChasseurSauteur]

This thread makes me think of that old joke, “The sciences will tell you how to clone a T-Rex. The humanities will tell you why it’s a bad idea.”

From someone with an advanced degree in the social sciences (though who’s counting) and who works actively in diversity, equity, and inclusion stuff…the attitude demonstrated by certain posters here is sadly typical of many of the ‘hard’ scientists I work with. God forbid we place any value on lived experiences or qualitative data of any kind to understand issues of bias and systemic discrimination.

[chestnutmarebeware]

@StormyDay

@Larksmom

I wonder who will be hiring Sue Ash after this.

When I read it I thought, well that’s one way to tank your career.

With all the issues associated with hunter/EQ showing that are never addressed, I’m confident that her statements won’t hurt her judging jobs at all.

[mika0116]

As someone who lives at the intersection of Quant and Qual (statistics, data science, and human behavior economics) - I agree

Some are also failing to acknowledge the skewed stats of the winners, which is comical for a scientist to overlook…

Say male riders make up 5% of Eq Juniors in the US. And they “podium” or Top 10 20-30% of the time. Well, that would be something to look into for all scientists both hard quant and more social/ qual.

[Jealoushe]

One thing I have learned on CoTH, is that a lot of posters are very successful, educated, and extremely intelligent. Like you said, a lot of them don’t make it known outright. Just because they aren’t plastering it around, doesn’t mean they don’t have that PHD or CEO backing their name

[kirbydog]

With the show entries running from a few hundred to a few thousand, did you expect any different? It’s like that at ALL the shows, most likely, unrated and local member too.
The only time you will probably see a class full of star players is at the indoor finals, and the final cut of the medal rounds and derby championships

[StormyDay]

@RAyers

Ironically, I have to have documented sexual bias protocols in place with the NIH. If you look at my student demographics, I maintain a 50:50 student population even in male dominated programs. My clinical research reflects a demographic equal to the national sexual demographic. I am well aware of bias and I have yet to see any in the horse industry as applied to competitors. And not one person yet has provided any definitive proof.

I would say that your arguments fail both legal and scientific veracity and simply exist in anecdotes that further your own perceptions.

The ‘I have a black friend’ excuse.
RAyers, I have no doubt you believe that you have no bias and the equestrian world doesn’t either. But considering that there is evidence, a lot of evidence, that there is bias against women in pretty much every other facet of life, why would you think the equestrian world would be some shining beacon of difference?

[Rnichols]

Oh, come on. I’ve kept my mouth shut while reading this thread, but I’ve had enough.

Judge says: “If at 165th a boy comes in and starts out with a lick and nails it, you get so excited you can’t stand it. You sit up in your seat and say, ‘Hallelujah.’ ”

You then come in and say you have “yet to see bias in the horse industry when it comes to competitors”

I just……I don’t understand what you don’t understand. Is reading comprehension lost on you? How does it get any more black and white than a JUDGE (who is judging, ya know, COMPETITORS) comes out and publicly says they get excited when a boy enters the ring. Notice the judge didn’t say A PERSON comes in and nails it. She specified a BOY.

The judge said that so why exactly are you so adamantly pushing that gender bias in competitive horse sports doesn’t exist? It’s embarrassing and frankly I’m just going to come out and say I’ve lost a lot of respect for you.