"Are Boy Points Real?" chronicle article

[mika0116]

Anecdotally, I used to ride a barn with a TON of Adult Ammys who ranged in skill and competitiveness (in the sense of how competitive they were tongue in cheek allowed to be)…

Male rider was given grace to hand off his horse to a groom and stomp around with a road soda (alcohol) in the golf cart because he stopped out in the Low Adult jumpers complaining to anyone who would listen because it was “such a frustrating loss” . Meanwhile the female rider in the SAME class in our barn who had 1 unlucky rail and was the top 4 faulter was encouraged to “cuddle her horse and come to dinner later once he was cooled out and put away”.

Oh both paid equally for grooms that show - no difference in service contract.

Vom - I don’t ride with the community that tolerated that weird standard anymore

[Jackie_Cochran]

I live in the South, Saddleseat, TWH shows and trail riding and Western trail riding country though some are into Western classes at the shows.

I have heard men who ride these types of horses tell me that men who gallop cross country at speed jumping big and dangerous fences are SISSIES because of the way English riding breeches look on them.

And I look at them, many often do not ride outside of the ring unless it is in a group ride at a walk, they rarely go galloping at all much less cross country over timber, one of the reasons they like riding Western is that they can hold onto the horn of the saddle and use sharp curb bits, they get upset if their horses show any independence at all, they never jump a fence higher than maybe one foot, and they think that male hunter/jumper/eventing riders are sissies. Go figure.

I think that they look down on people who jump because the girls and women who ride over the fences are braver than these men are and they cannot stand that at all.

Men may take over and win over fences in the show ring but a LOT of girls and women are braver than the boys and men (I am not talking about you here RAyers, you are the real thing.) We hunt seat women will get up on horses and do things that most men are, when you really get down to it, are not brave enough to try.

Except for those rare males who are actually brave enough on horseback to jump over 2’.

This is a modern phenomenon. When we women finally liberated ourselves from the side saddle we learned how to be brave because if we were not brave we could not ride the horses. So what if there are men that can ride better than us, there are not enough men like this in the world to support the part of the horse industry that jumps the big fences.

Without girls and women the horse would be extinct in this country. Most American men do not have the guts to actually ride challenging horses (again I am not talking about you RAyers.) Since a lot of cow operations have switched to ATVs to do cattle care even working cowboys are in danger of extinction.

Girls and women saved the American riding horse and a lot of the horseshow culture.

[sportyspicepony]

Regardless of whether the wide, unfounded generalizations about the ways that boys and girls ride differently are true or not… I think a larger question here is, what was the point of this article? Is COTH trying to say that male riders are oppressed somehow and that they needed defending?

I feel like the reason people are mad is not because we think women are inherently worse than men at riding. This article completely fails to acknowledge the existence of gender bias; we know for a fact that men are treated differently and the standards are lower for them than they are for women.

Men are given more opportunities, paid more, and coached more than women are, and studies have shown this to be true in the workplace, in schools, and in sports.

Honestly I feel like this conversation has already happened in most other areas of our lives, but it’s typical for the horse world to be 20 years behind.

[BITSA]

Ashe shouldn’t be allowed to judge; its clear that she’s rooting for boy riders (she admits this), there is no way her scores aren’t influenced by her excitement. And O’Mara needs to learn that emotion doesn’t equate to lack of hard work, resilliance and ability. Yeesh.

[hoopoe]

I though it was very illuminating that in a sea of navy wearing, bay riding females, the presence if a male rider makes them pay attention more. Am I getting that right?

[sportyspicepony]

@2bayboys

And is it possible that these skilled male riders have attained their skill because they have been treated more favorably along the way?

Exactly. Men are given every opportunity to be set up for success!

Honestly the way they use statistics in this article is kind of heinous as well. “Ten young men won top- 10 ribbons at Medal Finals from 2008-2017, and all but one, Chase Boggio, became professionals. (Boggio is still involved as an amateur.) On the other hand, in that same time period, 72 young women won top-10 ribbons at equitation finals, and only 31 went on to become professionals. So 90 percent of ribbon-winning men went on to become professionals, versus only 43 percent of women.”

9 men vs. 31 women? Should you be comparing these rates as percentages if the sample sizes are SOO wildly uneven?

@Pokerface

The part where TJ mentions how Luke Jensen’s recent win, and how Luke is more “Workman like” and doesn’t have as much “Style”, I’m sorry, is this NOT equitation? To my mind, style is a huge part of equitation. While he gave a lovely ride, I doubt that a “female” with similar posture would have topped that class.

They should’ve asked a female rider the same questions they asked him for this article; of course he doesn’t think he has a leg up! Maybe even some of the girls from the Maclay finals would have something to say about how the placings ended up this year and how gender bias could’ve played a role there

I would LOVE to see a real study about judging bias towards men vs. women in the equitation.

[bugsynskeeter1]

Malcolm Gladwell…barf.

[RAyers]

One can do statistics on small sample sizes such as that. I would assume a researcher with a MPH has that capability, as the person in the article.

I’ve published in high impact professional journals using similar sample sizes. While not desirable, it allows observation of a significant affect while data is still being collected. In this case they could go retrospectively back 30-40 years.

[sportyspicepony]

I just don’t really find it convincing toward their point. But I guess that’s neither here nor there in the grander scheme of what I find problematic about this article

[Trekkie]

Ummmm…sexism is the original “ism” and men have had the upper hand for thousands of years. Still true in everything. Better opportunities, better pay, better judgements. If women these days think they are equally judged or rewarded it is an illusion. Yup, we are different then men. Yup, we have to tone down our assertiveness or competitiveness to be accepted. Yup, we really just love the horses. And yup, we can be equally or more badass on horseback than any guy. One day I hope women will realize their power and take over the world.

[kirbydog]

oooo, that would not fly with me. I have no tolerance for poor sportsmanship, at any age or level of riding. i don’t take it from the pros who have ridden for me (fired the ones who were rude to me and the horses) and I don’t take it from short stirrup riders.
the only lesson i have ever gotten po’d enough to walk out on was a man who couldn’t find the jumps that night, so he got rough with the horse and called it some nasty names. i told him there was only 1 f***ing a$$ in the ring, and it wasn’t me or the horse

[kirbydog]

no, but emotion can be the killer of good riding. like any sport, it should be done calmly with a clear head. tears will screw up a lesson like nothing else. and younger girls will cry, trust me

[2bayboys]

@Mander

@RAyers

I think there is a lack of competitiveness and aggression in girls at that age that tends to self select girls out because they lack the drive that can come from boys competing against each other or aggressively driving themselves to improve just as in other sports

I think it has to be pointed out that girls are often socially punished for being fiercely/overtly competitive in a way boys are not. Obviously this is only anecdotal, but I was plenty competitive growing up. Sometime around high school though, “determined” started being described as “stubborn” or “bull-headed”. “Tenacity” began to be labeled as “combative”. “Focused” became “stuck-up”. “Confidence” became “arrogance”. Etc. I found myself making very conscious decisions to temper my competitive nature to avoid negative social consequences.

About the same time that “assertive” is relabeled as “aggressive” and “strong minded” as “difficult.”

[coffeehag]

This whole f*cking article is steeped in so much sexism and misogyny. The fact that the brunt of those quoted are JUDGES is especially heinous.

“When a boy starts riding, if they continue—because it is not a team sport, and they get teased, the whole bit—once they get their teeth sunk into it, and they stay with it, normally they are the better riders, I’m sorry,” said Ashe.

So I guess we’re now going to ignore the massive societal stigma that girls and young women get by being “horse girls”?

“If at 165th a boy comes in and starts out with a lick and nails it, you get so excited you can’t stand it. You sit up in your seat and say, ‘Hallelujah.’ ”… (“If you’re helping them because they’re a boy as far as I’m concerned you shouldn’t be holding your card,” she said) she did concede that she hopes to see young men to perform well in the ring.

Well it’s good to know that if I ever compete against a boy and Ashe is judging I’ll lose because I’m “too boring” for her.

She suggested that the strength may come easier to boys, and dedicated boys who develop their feel can excel.

Considering her next breath spews pop psychology I’m not sure that Fran Dotoli should get to wax poetic about what does and does not make a better rider.

I think when you’re dealing with teenage girls [you have to be careful when you] push to the boundaries or else they’re going to get a little emotional. I see that as well. Sometimes in my lessons I’ll try to catch myself because I tend to be a little tough on my riders. I think it’s finding the correct balance of being strong with young ladies and explaining to them in a reasonable way.

And I think in our culture our tendency is to coddle the female and expect the boy not to cry. He has to buck up, get knocked down and get back up.

Did I mention misogyny? BOTH of these quotes, one from O’Mara and the other Dotoli, respectively, are abhorrent.

Are we forgetting that we have SafeSport because of the abuse that young women face? Are we forgetting menstrual cramps and the scientific fact that women have higher pain thresholds than men? Or that women are often punished for being competitive and wanting to win?

This whole article is a crock of shit and COTH should be embarrassed for putting it out. Furthermore these judges ought to be investigated for what is clearly biased behavior.

[MadTrotter]

And it’s totally arbitrary too. In some ways, the US equestrian culture as effeminate is an outlier.

I lived in Argentina for a year and went out with my ex to rent some horses from the gauchos and just ride the pampas. That’s what you did, you just drove up to a neighboring ranch and paid some money and chances are they would just take you out for a ride.

Horses there can be quite a machismo thing…my ex was offered the feisty mount and I was offered the aged stalwart and my husband, an Argentine, explained who was riding which

To their credit, once they saw I had the huevos, they let me gallop the horizon to my hearts content, and were very respectful.

[MadTrotter]

It’s all the more frustrating because let’s face it, Big Eq isn’t exactly a strength sport the way a lot of other sports automatically gives boys that advantage. Maybe if girls didn’t have to constantly starve into an arbitrary silhouette… So the girls end up all looking the same and the boys stick out in a positive way.

[Peggy]

Ireland too. The first time we went, the two men consistently got the nicer, more athletic horses at one of the places. They were not the best riders. One was probably the high middle of our pack and the other one near the bottom. This was not the case at the other two places we went. Nor the second time we went to the one place a few years later.

[Peggy]

@coffeehag

This whole article is a crock of shit and COTH should be embarrassed for putting it out. Furthermore these judges ought to be investigated for what is clearly biased behavior.

I kind of think that COTH may have done a public service by publishing it. At least you know where people stand. Maybe should have been published online only, as opposed to also in print.

[RAyers]

Chiming in from the male/guy/boy perspective and experience.

I was constantly called a “faggot,” “pussy,” etc. from guys in junior high and high school. They continually made fun because I wore tall boots and a tie and coat. Of course I also ran track (team captain two years) and earned respect from those guys because I was the fastest sprinter in high school. But it sure wasn’t because I won a year end championship in the Jr. Jumpers. I got into fights with the rodeo guys when horseshows were combined with rodeo such as the National Western Stockshow and Rodeo. They would see me carrying my tack and, well, shit happened. You can not tell me that boys aren’t more motivated than the girls at that age. We had to be to be because the peer pressure on us was ever present. We couldn’t hide they way boys can now (not attending school to go campaign, riding only at high end destination horse shows).

In the end, the cadre of guys with who I rode stuck up for each other because we had to. We got into bar fights together and we stood up for each other, still do. Some of us earned our Pinque coats, some became trainers, and all of us still ride and develop horses.

[sportyspicepony]

Have you ever heard of male privilege or the patriarchy or sexism before?