Are mares really worth it?

(The explanation that I have heard bandied about is) An unsound stallion may not be able to breed live cover. Insisting on live cover means the stallion and mare must at least be pasture sound. The stallion must at least be able to carry his weight on his hind end and get up enough off the ground to mount the mare, and the mare must be able to stand and take his weight for the brief time breeding takes.

(Whether that’s sufficient justification for requiring live cover; I can’t say.)

Edited to add content in parantheses.

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Sorry, that just sounds like a regurgitated, made up nonsense reason. That would be a great test for backyard breeding. Not so much for valuable animals.

Do people paying for AI actually need to do this? Not likely.

Does a stallion breeding live cover prove any heritable soundness traits to offspring? Not likely.

Does a mare who survives the risk of live cover prove any heritable traits to offspring? Not likely.

When I look at what dairy breeders have at their fingertips in terms of genetic proof (or as near to proof as possible) and then read that horses should breed live cover because nature(?), I sprain my rolly eye muscles.

Successfully completing a live cover breeding only shows that the mare and stallion were sound enough to breed live cover AT THAT MOMENT. It says nothing of the traits they will pass on to their get.

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The Jockey Club disagrees.

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I’ve always thought that the best argument for live cover is the problematic example of the Impressive line in Quarter Horses.

If there was no live cover requirement, many, many offspring would be from only a very small group of stallions, and there would be a lot of potential for problems cropping up in the next couple of generations.

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I agree with this. By requiring live cover the JC minimizes “spreading wild oats far and wide” to only those who can ship the mare to the stallion. It’s at least “something” anyway, that minimizes just how many genes get passed around.

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The Jockey Club is wrong.

There are LOADS and LOADS of really good reasons for not allowing AI in TBs. That is not one of them. It’s a BS reason set up to let people be ok with the rule without having to explain the intricacies of the good reasons.

Editing to add that if you really want to know how to best match stallions and mares to give offspring the best chance at X trait, petition for in depth genome studies … oh, but can’t do that because then breeders would be up in arms at having to send their mares even longer distances for the best possible matches which then might eventually precipitate AI which then might cause an absolute disaster for TB breeding/the breed.

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@sascha,

I have no hound in this hunt and no particular passion for the argument. It’s not that I’m defending the Jockey Club position. Initially you asked:

[quote] What on earth does live cover have to do with breeding soundness? [/quote] and I gave the textbook answer. You disagreed. In fact, so do I, but it doesn’t change the fact that it’s the JC’s position. I also think that their position has MORE to do with keeping stud fees high than “breeding soundness.”

The amount of unsoundness kept out of the breeding pool by requiring live cover is small, to be sure. TB breeders aren’t paragons to be emulated, necessarily. For one, TBs aren’t getting faster - racing records are amazingly consistent over the last hundred years. And the focus on racing speed alone has led to the progation of some undesirable traits like poor hoof quality. Also, even with the live cover requirement, the gene pool remains pretty small. Almost impossible to find a NA racehorse without Northern Dancer in their pedigree a few generations bank and AP Indy up closer.

Finally, the real requirement is that the mare and stallion have to be geographically close to one another, alive and able to stand. There is nothing but their conscience that prevents a TB breeder from collecting a stallion and inseminating a mare quietly in the breeding shed and attesting to the JC it was live cover. It does prevent breeding by cooled or shipped semen.

My old repro vet told me once that every time he attended an AI seminar, most of the breeders in attendance were TB people. He didn’t think they were there out of intellectual curiousity.

However, I do think that the TB people have a better record on genetic disease and heritable flaws than QH breeders, Paint breeders, Draft and Arab breeders.

Requiring horses to be inspected and held to a breed standard and a performance standard, as the European WB breeders do appears to be the best way, but even they have had to struggle with WFSS.

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Next time you post anything I will remember it is some random textbook non-quote than your actual opinion.

Seriously, if it’s not your opinion, why would you post it without saying, hey, this is the “textbook” answer. Or, if you have no “dog in the fight” or little interest in the topic, why on earth go to the bother of typing it out?

Nowhere did I state that it was my opinion, or that I believed it. I even said “The Jockey Club disagrees.”; specifically identifing the opinion wasn’t mine.

With your first question “What on earth does live cover have to do with breeding soundness?” I actually thought you were asking for the information or the rationale, which I sillily provided. If I had know you wanted to argue the point, I wouldn’t have responded or maybe responded differently.

I post a lot of things on this board that are information rather than opinion. Do I really need to identify them as such? Isn’t just putting “IMO” or “IMHO” or “My opinion is” in front things that are actually opinion enough?

Don’t we have enough posters here that pretend their opinion IS fact? Isn’t someone offering information without opinion useful?

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Wow, um, ok? This is a bulletin board. One would think that when a poster posts something it is their opinion. Generally on a bulletin board, things that are NOT opinion are cited with, “The JC says” or “I read this somewhere” or whatnot.

I guess if you don’t want something to appear as your opinion, don’t post it without clarifying that it’s something from some other source. Isn’t this the way this board has worked from pretty much the beginning?

Nowhere in your original post below did you mention that this was anything but your opinion.

So this,

really makes little sense.

I just don’t get it. I thought I understood how bulletin boards worked. :rofl:

So sorry to give offense. I edited my first post to make it more clear.

That could quite possibly be explained by the JC’s acceptance of “reinforcement breeding” (taking any semen left in the vagina or caught by the handler, and introducing it into the uterus) which is pretty much AI at the time of a live cover breed.

Of course only a good reason after the JC approved the practice. :wink:

I was surprised when the JC made that decision. :smiley:

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It may be your opinion that the Jockey Club is “wrong” but as @McGurk and I both said, that is one of the reasons that they give for using live cover. I tend to agree with them, they want stallions and mares that can reproduce naturally. I just think they see AI as a “slippery slope” toward ET etc…

There are more reasons, but I don’t agree that breeding soundness is “a BS reason set up to let people be OK with the rule without having to explain the intricacies of the good reasons”.

That comment doesn’t make sense to me.

Most TB breeders are well aware of the “intricacies of the good reasons” for maintaining the live cover requirement. It is something that directly affects them.

It doesn’t mean they all like it, but the JC will change the requirement when hell freezes over, IMO.

With the advent of DNA typing the stallion “swap” is not much of a concern anymore, however there are, as you mentioned, other reasons for the requirement.

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My mental visual of “caught by the handler” has GOT to be wrong…

:joy:

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I’m sure it is. :wink:

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Same. lol

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A foal is proportionately larger (about 1/10th the weight of the weight of the mare) at birth than a human baby (about 1/20th the weight of the average woman) is. The anatomy is a bit different, but sure I believe that it is more painful and more dangerous for a mare to foal than for a human to have a baby. Normal Weights of Horse Foals at Birth | Animals.mom.com

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I could have written are geldings worth it? LOL cause mine was a total pill and I can’t believe how sweet my mare is this round. I’ve had at least a dozen mares only one that was super marish and even so, easiest most reliable horse at the show.

Geldings have broken two of my bones, one gave me show PTSD for rearing lol.

I think they get a pass cause we can’t blame their hormones! lol

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And perhaps much like us they are a conversationalist vs. a drone. At least the alpha of course is. She would need to communicate to her the herd, her foals, and stallions alike!

She is often gonna tell us something regardless if we like it or not.

My recent filly walked out in the pasture a fresh weanling and immediately told the entire herd she was the boss day one. I went OH NOOOOOOO

Now, at almost two, I am like dang this is a nice brave horse. We dismiss how brave some mares can be. Isn’t a thing she’s afraid of least of all dressage mirrors lol

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Ha!, she’ll probably be your best one…

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