Are mares really worth it?

[mvp]

[quote=“McGurk, post:149, topic:755420, full:true”]
There is nothing but their conscience that prevents a TB breeder from collecting a stallion and inseminating a mare quietly in the breeding shed and attesting to the JC it was live cover. It does prevent breeding by cooled or shipped semen.

I don’t think that’s true. Rather, I think every cover is videotaped. The JC does not take kindly to ringers of any sort and I think there are plenty in the history of TB breeding.

I thought the purpose of the Live Cover requirement first was about keeping breedings honest-- so that pedigrees would be accurate. Then, I thought it had an added bonus of keeping variability in the somewhat small gene pool represented by a closed book breed. I’m not sure this is one of the JC’s stated goals.

[McGurk]

I only did a cursory search, but I can find no reference to a requirement to have live cover breedings videotaped. I would be surprised to find such a requirement existed.

Because I have the mind of a mystery novelist, I immediately went to all the really easy ways such a video could be faked.

Also, “ringers” aren’t produced in the breeding shed, they’re produced on the backstretch. Lots of wonderfully bred horses have been less than successful at the track.

I can’t think of a scheme where lying about a horse’s actual breeding (different stud or different mare than on the papers) actually produces any short or mid term benefit for the breeders, trainers or gamblers.

The ringer scandals I’m aware of (Cinzano comes to mind) is sending the slower horse out to work and sometimes to race until the betting odds fall and then sending the good horse out to clean up. Two similarly marked horses or two plain bays and a faked tattoo are all that are needed to make this work; no need to start in the breeding shed.

[YankeeDuchess]

[quote=“mvp, post:163, topic:755420, full:true”]

@McGurk

There is nothing but their conscience that prevents a TB breeder from collecting a stallion and inseminating a mare quietly in the breeding shed and attesting to the JC it was live cover. It does prevent breeding by cooled or shipped semen.

I don’t think that’s true. Rather, I think every cover is videotaped. The JC does not take kindly to ringers of any sort and I think there are plenty in the history of TB breeding.

I thought the purpose of the Live Cover requirement first was about keeping breedings honest-- so that pedigrees would be accurate. Then, I thought it had an added bonus of keeping variability in the somewhat small gene pool represented by a closed book breed. I’m not sure this is one of the JC’s stated goals.

How does the requirement for live cover enhance the variability of the sires used relative to AI? I would think that allowing for AI so that it’s easy for a mare owner to breed to any stallion in the world would increase the number of sires actually used.

[Scribbler]

Other way around.

With AI and frozen sperm it’s much easier for one sire to dominate a crop of babies. Like those rogue human sperm donors that father 800 chikdren.

Live cover means you need to find a stallion on the same continent as you, and likely in the same country and region. It keeps a lot more local stud farms going.

[YankeeDuchess]

@Scribbler

Other way around.

With AI and frozen sperm it’s much easier for one sire to dominate a crop of babies. Like those rogue human sperm donors that father 800 chikdren.

Live cover means you need to find a stallion on the same continent as you, and likely in the same country and region. It keeps a lot more local stud farms going.

On the other hand, if you’re a mare owner in Florida, you pretty much have to use a Kentucky stallion, because it’s too expensive to ship the horse to California or the UK or Australia.

[mvp]

@Scribbler

Other way around.

With AI and frozen sperm it’s much easier for one sire to dominate a crop of babies. Like those rogue human sperm donors that father 800 chikdren.

Live cover means you need to find a stallion on the same continent as you, and likely in the same country and region. It keeps a lot more local stud farms going.

In addition, it means that a stallion who was considered great and had his semen frozen could effectively become immortal and dominate for many, many more foal crops.

[Semper_Domina]

As the OP, I thought that I should give an update on the crabby mare.

Turns out she has bone spurs at C3-4 and a congenital deformity at C5-6-7 resulting in equine encelopathy causing chronic pain. This finding was confirmed by necropsy. Yes, mares are worth it. She was trying to tell me something was very wrong. I’m grateful that I had the sense enough to listen to her instead of trying to train it out of her or sedating her and selling her to someone else, as was done to me. The cycle stopped with me and she is finally at peace.

[endlessclimb]

I’m sorry for your loss, OP. You did right by your girl, they always tell you whats up. Wishing you healing in the future.

[Posting_Trot]

Gosh, I’m so sorry for your loss and also for all of the pain and heartache of having to chase down what was wrong.

You were a great owner for your horse.

[mvp]

@Semper_Domina

As the OP, I thought that I should give an update on the crabby mare.

Turns out she has bone spurs at C3-4 and a congenital deformity at C5-6-7 resulting in equine encelopathy causing chronic pain. This finding was confirmed by necropsy. Yes, mares are worth it. She was trying to tell me something was very wrong. I’m grateful that I had the sense enough to listen to her instead of trying to train it out of her or sedating her and selling her to someone else, as was done to me. The cycle stopped with me and she is finally at peace.

Oh man, oh man, oh man! I am so sorry for your loss and very humbled but this update.

It’s worth underlining the conviction that animals do not choose to be chronically pissy without a chronic, unsolved problem. That problem can be lots of things (pain is just one), but we are obligated to do everything we can think of to solve it. It will go away when the problem has been solved. And I think domesticated animals are kind by nature; all of 'em are pretty accepting and even stoic. So that you mare got as far as she did in her career while grappling with a deformity that caused pain… that means a lot to me.

I have learned a bit about the congenital malformations that happen in horse vertebrae. There are some folks here in Aiken who have made a whole study of this and I have held some examples of those malformed bones in my hand and been able to appreciate how little muscle attachment can happen for some crucial muscles on C6 and C7 when those deformed parts are missing.

Thank you for taking the time to let us know what the cause of her unhappiness was. I hope it can help another horse.

[Gardenhorse]

So sorry to hear this update. But thank you for listening to your mare and doing right by her.

[sascha]

I am so sorry for your loss and grateful for your final kindness. I’ve been there and done that with a lovely gelding. It’s absolutely heartbreaking to be the one that finally figures it out and does the right thing. But, so, so right to do the right thing.