Are temperaments genetically passed down?

[BlueDrifter]

I have owned an AQHA Hancock/Blue Valentine horse for a year, and he has been one of the most opinionated and stubborn horses I have encountered. Many websites say that is characteristic of those bloodlines, and they either love them or hate them.

I can understand genetically passing on conformation, and thus having some bloodlines more suitable for one sport or another. But temperament? Wouldn’t that be more a function of environment?

I can see how donkeys (and mules) might have a stubborn streak as they are a slightly different species. But I was never quite a believer of the stubbornness of Appaloosas and Trakehners (had both) — but they are different breeds, so maybe?

But bloodlines? Just hard for me to believe the horse in front of me today can be a PITA because of his great, great, grandfather!

Is there some logic to that line of thinking?

[TMares]

How is he bred closer up?

And yes, of course, temperament is heritable, and some horses are more prepotent than others.

In a description of Joe Hancock:
[I]Joe Hancock’s history is filled with approximation and uncertainty. Bred by John Jackson Hancock, Joe Hancock was foaled sometime between 1923 and 1925. His sire was the great foundation stallion Peter McCue, and his dam was a grade mare by a Percheron stallion and out of a Thoroughbred-type mare. This unusual cross gave Joe Hancock his stout conformation, calm yet tough disposition, speed and cow sense.

After a colorful match-race career, during which he stood open to race any horse for [/I]three-eighths of a mile, Joe Hancock retired virtually undefeated. Tom Burnett paid $2,000 for the horse[I] and retired him to stud on the Four Sixes/ Triangle Ranches.

Today, rodeo competitors, ropers and ranchers appreciate Hancock-bred horses for their big, stout conformations, grittiness and cow sense. Some Hancocks are known for their buck, big feet [/I]and plain heads, but staunch supporters say few foundation bloodlines produce such hardworking horses.

These sorts of 'take no s*** horses are rock freaking solid doers if you can get them broke and don’t take no as an argument.

[beowulf]

I believe basic disposition is passed down. But life, nurture, and environment all play a huge part in how that foal develops and can influence or override their basic disposition. I have often wondered how different some of my horses would have been if I had raised them, or if the circumstances surrounding their nurture had been different.

I think it is easier if you look at it from a base level rather than gauging in-depth personality of siblings or offspring.

For instance, I have two “half-siblings” (they have the same sire) and while their personalities are night and day, their basic dispositions(temperaments) are very similar. One is a jokester, has a great sense of humor, can be a bit of a punk, and the other would probably most resemble Buster from Arrested Development… but the two are very similar rides, and have very similar reactions to new stimuli, and both possess the same good brain their father was known for passing on.

Foals also get a lot of education from the horse[s] that raise them. It is very well documented that a foal will base many of its behaviors on what is expressed in its dam, surrogate dam, or “caretaker” horse. So if the foals dam is flighty or spooky, the foal will often piggyback on these behaviors and learn to perceive certain things as worthy of being flighty or spooky from. From that same example a foal that has a laid-back mare that often does not stop to inspect things, will often also demonstrate that same laid-back attitude since the mare did not “teach them” to be alarmed about new things.

One thing to keep in mind, though, especially when looking at “negative” traits being inherited (IE a certain line known for being sour or nasty) is that often times, the behavior is a symptom of something else physical - and many physical issues are heritable, like weak or bad conformation (which leads to development of injuries), kissing spine, predisposition to develop certain joint diseases, etc… so it doesn’t do the horse much service to write it up as a bad attitude inherited by an ancestor.

[BlueDrifter]

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@TMares, as I have learned, most of these horses are inbred/linebred, but not sure how to tell “how close up” since it seems all his prior generations are some percent Hancock. Here is his line breeding from allbreedpedigree.

I have definitely made mistakes when I first got him… insisting he must go forward, using whip, increasing the pressure, etc. All tools I was taught about horses. We are doing much better when I let him think about a request and don’t get into a argument with him. He was a ranch horse, and I am learning “ranch horses” might not know that much about recreational rider lifestyles. I am hoping he turns into that freakin’ rock solid trail horse for me! I am certainly learning a lot. I didn’t realize how lucky I was with my prior horses.

@beowulf, your nuance of disposition being passed on might be hitting the nail on the head. But it is so hard for me to accept that it is coming from bloodlines versus how he was raised. My birth dad was an indigent, which neither my sister or I inherited – but maybe he was a logical, good-natured indigent which would describe us!

@beowulf, an excellent point about heritable conformation issues that could cause pain and bad attitudes! When I first got him, he kept tripping, changed farriers, did chiro, and he has improved ever since. Maybe that earlier stubbornness was being uncomfortable more than bloodlines. Not to say he still doesn’t have his “I am not going forward” moments, and that he isn’t a bully at times, but they are fewer and further between.

[Scribbler]

Well if you look at studies of adopted separated human twins or even at adopted kids, you will see that there are baselines of certain aptitudes and characteristics that are clearly inherited. And humans have far more variables to their personality and character.

How they turn out with those variables is another matter.

Even in humans, things like intelligence, creativity, confidence, can lead to success or misery if you are in a life situation where there is no outlet for those impulses.

In horses, you could have that big headed bold opinionated horse that could either turn into a great reliable working partner or a sullen bronc that says “no!!” to everything.

Or as in my case, you can have a horse that toggles back and forth between the two on the same ride.

I don’t know my Paint mare’s breeding but she fits the bill for a lot of Foundation characteristcs

If you pick a fight with her, even if you win, expect a bigger fight the next day.

[bluepece2]

This is just what we were talking about today. My mare has great blood lines and is a great athlete. She’s sweet as can be to lead and deal with in the field but in her box and in the cross ties she’s a major female dog. She’s younger and we’re just getting our groove so no plans to breed yet but I was debating if these traits will go into her offspring.

[oldernewbie]

My younger horse is one of 4 full brothers raised at the same farm by the same trainer. I don’t know the oldest brother, but the other three have very similar temperaments. Kind, smart, and sensible. They also have two half siblings (same mare), raised at same farm by same trainer. They are similar to full brothers but not quite like them. An interesting case study of nature and nurture. I do believe that trainability and temperament are heritable.

[JB]

Absolutely, it is genetic. There’s a reason WB stallion approvals score temperament.

There’s a reason the Hancock-bred horses are noted for being “need to be and stay in work” horses.

There’s a reason many stallions are known as producing ammy-friendly, or “professional” horses. Sometimes this one is about gaits, but mostly it’s about temperament (or disposition as mentioned).

There’s a reason some of the breeding discussions center around which stallions to not choose for hot mares.

Beyond that, you can teach a genetically quiet horse to be reactive to aids. You can teach a genetically “amped up” horse to have a preferred method of reacting over just spazzing off.

Nurture can make a genetic (nature) temperament more acceptable, but in the heat of things, the horse will almost always resort to his genetic nature, barring some seriously well-ingrained training.

[Toblersmom]

Certainly general temperament and other behavioral trends are influenced by genetics. More clearly evident in dogs, where they’ve been selectively bred for many widely differing behavioral things like “pointing,” digging out vermin, and herding. Very clearly evident in the famous Russian fur fox experiment. I didn’t realize until recently that there is also a line of very aggressive foxes that are in that experiment, and they did work grafting “tame” fox kits on “wild” vixens and vice versa to better test if the kits learned “tame” behavior from their dam. There was apparently some influence from the dam, but not much.

[goodhors]

I do believe that among the Western breeds, the way they are often raised, makes a big difference in their thinking. Being turned out in bands, learning their land in huge pastures, finding water, good grazing, ON THEIR OWN, means horse thinks for himself more than other ways of being raised allow. Many ranches, cowboys want a horse that can take care of himself, think how to survive in less cared for situations. No time for molly-coddling them. Such semi-feral horses then come in to be handled, taught to be ridden and worked, but still maintain their own ideas in situations. Call it stubborn or bull-headed, horse trusts HIMSELF first, then if he agrees with rider requests, they can work as a team. This is where much of the success of natural handling, horsemanship, has helped such horses be easier to teach, be also easier on their riders teaching skills to him. Pushing hard, trying to “force” obedience is not always going to work on such horses. We have improved our methods from the past, to get the better horses we have now. Gaining his trust, showing your ability as the “herd leader” may take time, or never happens between you and a certain animal. Another person might get him cooperating. Don’t take it all personally, sometimes you and horse may not be a good match, so you move on.

I agree that cooperativeness, trainability, is bred into horses. When I was looking at WB stallions, I definitely read those numbers in their stallion testing for trainability!

Those horses less cooperative with humans usually do not get bred to pass on that attitude. Sometimes other physical characteristics may be so desirable, that breeder used the horse despite bad attitude, resistance to training. This is like TBs where speed rules. They can work around bad tempers if horse will run and win. Other breeds ignore body faults if horse has great beauty or gaits, breed the horse anyway.

[sonestra]

While environment does factor in, studies in people have shown we were originally incorrect in thinking nurture has a bigger presence than it actually does. There was a really great book written about this, but I forget the name. Being another mammal, I’d assume horses are similar, but it’s just a guess.

[exvet]

I agree with the others that temperament is genetic. I have bred, delivered and trained full siblings and many horses/ponies by the same sire out of different mares; but, a sire known to be very prepotent. Actually I’ve done this with two sires which were father and son. There is no doubt in my mind and one my health has counted on because at 55 I’m still backing/starting my own. It’s ‘that’ temperament that has kept me in one piece.

[BlueDrifter]

@goodhors - your words really resonate, so much so, that a COTH friend that knows my horse texted me to say “did you read @goodhors? That fits Drifter!”

I don’t know his history, other than spending his first 10 years as a ranch horse – but he has enough scars on him to suggest he had to figure out surviving with minimal care.

The pieces seem to be falling into place – his breeding (H/BV) gives him the temperament to be a survivor and his upbringing probably led to his independence (aka “stubborn/bully”). And it fits the reputation of Hancocks being great horses once you gain their trust.

Had I known anything about Hancock horses before hand, I probably would have passed. But we are making headway slowly and this new perspective helps immensely.

This has been an aha! thread for me! Thanks much everyone.

[Rackonteur]

Of course temperament is hereditary.

As to not pushing horses, that can apply to some pampered TBs as well as to some free-range QHs and other ranch horses. Why?

Temperament.

Think of Man o’ War’s breeding, right off the bat. Whirlaway. Two classic examples.

[gumtree]

I certainly didn’t write the book. I have read plenty who have. Some of which I have found holds true and a lot of which doesn’t IME as a breeder. of TBs.

“Absolutely, it is genetic.”

Well, IME yes and no. IMO and experience absurd to make such a broad statement as fact.

Out of curiosity, to those that have commented. How many horses have you bred? How many in any given year? How many different broodmares have you worked with over the years? If you have only had 1-2-3+ in your broodmare band IMO that is a very small “study” group.

In the grand scheme of commercial TB breeding my operation was on the small side of things. 10 to 20+ foaling mares. A number of which I worked with for years. All by and large were bought at auction. So it’s not like we can spend time with them so as to get a handle on their temperament. Having over 40 years of inspecting 1000s foals, yearlings, older horses. Countless stallions. Studying pedigrees closely, keeping tabs on how the progeny perform. One gets a pretty good inkling into what may or may not be the end result. But that’s about it, an inkling.

In my small personal broodmare band. I have had mares that were at TOTAL PITA to work with. None of their foals turned out to be like them. I have bred to stallions that get good foals, good runners but have a perceived knock about their temperament. I learned not to worry too much about that. IME it is ALL about how they are raised. Being small on a tight budget I did not have the luxury of having lots of staff. All of my foals and clients had my direct attention and handling by and large.

IME I agree with this comment by Beowulf;

“But life, nurture, and environment all play a huge part in how that foal develops and can influence or override their basic disposition. I have often wondered how different some of my horses would have been if I had raised them, or if the circumstances surrounding their nurture had been different”

IME I have not found this to be true as a rule. IMO too many variables.

“Foals also get a lot of education from the horse[s] that raise them. It is very well documented that a foal will base many of its behaviors on what is expressed in its dam, surrogate dam, or “caretaker” horse. So if the foals dam is flighty or spooky, the foal will often piggyback on these behaviors and learn to perceive certain things as worthy of being flighty or spooky from. From that same example a foal that has a laid-back mare that often does not stop to inspect things, will often also demonstrate that same laid-back attitude since the mare did not “teach them” to be alarmed about new things”

In the TB breeding world the foals are weaned by and large at 5 months. In the grand scheme of things a very small part of their life. I could see this holding more water for a breeder that has only 1 or 2+ foals. Our mare and foal fields had LOTs of foals with mares. The foals interacted FAR more with each other then their dams. When a couple of months old they generally all hung and played together. Their dams would be on the other side of the field at times. Some foals would spend more time around another mare with a friend. I guess they, like some of us as kids, found their moms to be more fun, nicer to spend time with?

Unlike a lot of stuff I read, books and or comments in this forum I have not found it necessary to spend a lot of time interacting with foals, weanlings. short yearlings. IME I have found foals tend to get annoyed with too much human interaction, I interact just enough for them to understand humans are a good thing to be around. But never so much as to annoy them and make them standoffish. “Less is more” IME. IMO too many people go by the book, good intentions can and do confuse horses IME.

I have had weanlings, short yearlings sent to me by small breeders, very small breeders. Very nice people. Their horses were always a PITA. When asked about my boarding/training rates I the basic rate is X. Special needs requires special pricing. I would let them know what that price would be after a couple of days a week or so. If they didn’t want to pay it, fine come and get the horse. I only charged extra for the time it took to turn the horse around. I never had a dissatisfied client who paid the extra charge.

I have taken weanlings out of the their field 6 weeks before sending them to a sale. The hardest part was getting them from the field to the barn. Second hardest part was catching some in their stalls. 6 weeks later they walk on the van go to the sale and show like champs to potential buyers.

I’ve had sweet foals that became PITAs after weaning. Had sweet weanling who were PITAs as yearlings for a while. Ones that I was REALLY not looking forward to breaking/starting. Bit of a PITA when first starting the process but came around in short order and more then pleasantly surprised. Thanks god, lol.

So, IMO and experience until you have worked with lots over the years. Take everything you read, hear, are told with a grain of salt. In the world of horses there are just too many variables.

Breeding theories are just that. Theories. Nothing by and large IMO and experience is written in stone. Over the years a lot of things I was told, taught growing up around horses and in the business of horses I have changed modified.

As always to each their own.

[Fillabeana]

Disposition is absolutely heritable.

Estimates in cattle figure the heritability of measured docility scores to be similar to the heritability of birth weight, scrotal circumference, and yearling weight. Heritability of docility score is about .40.

A heritability of 1 means that the expression is all genetic, like say coat color (red, black, pinto spots, etc). A heritability of zero would mean that expression of a trait has zero genetic component.

https://www.angus.org/Nce/Heritabilities.aspx

In reality, most traits have some genetic component and some environment/training/experience component.

I think in general, we have bred riding horses to be compliant. When we get one that won’t do as we say, Because We Said So…it takes ''different" or “special” techniques to get the horse confident and capable in his particular discipline.

Ray Hunt used to tell people to “Fix it up so the horse can find it.” When the horse can think through something for himself, and come to the conclusion that you wanted… and you ‘train’ the horse this way consistently, a “stubborn” horse will eventually look for your suggestions. But he has to understand that he always has the freedom of choice, of thinking for himself.

A “not stubborn” or good minded horse will go with your suggestions much earlier in the process, or just do as you say because you said so.

Works really well that way with cattle, too.

Anyway, exposure and experience will absolutely have an effect on temperament. But genetics do, too.

[Texarkana]

I think watching clones has provided some really fascinating insight into this topic.

With the clones, their seems to be more similarities than differences, despite being raised at different times/locations from different mares and handled by different humans.

[Foxtrot_s]

The stallion does not see any of his kids, yet they gain a reputation for their interior qualities. I give you Dynaforner as an example. Yes temperament is taught (?) by the dams, the matriarchs, the kindergarten teachers - but the stallion gains his reputation from many offspring he produces. IME (to quote Gumtree).

[TMares]

I have had and owned a number of get by the same sire, and they all share a number of consistent traits- love bugs on the ground, bottomless undersaddle (to their detriment, they’ll never say tired), bold but curious, and some intangible little things I can’t put words to- when i meet their relatives I’m often struck by their shared similarities, too.

I blame the Barefoot Bar bred dam of an idiot I rode years ago for his antics. I rode a ton of get by the sire, that one colt was a nutbar, just like his momma (just goofy. He dumped me unceremoniously in a back field as I was stepping down off of him- he ducked right, sucked back, and left me(that was a first for him) – he careened across the pasture and ran for the barn- but he would have had to cross a concrete farm bridge to get there, and he feared that bridge, so he literally ran back to me and stopped, heaving, and I climbed back on. Never before had he been weird about dismounting him ( and I started him, I would know) or ever considered running off. Every day with him was a new adventure. Moron).

I do 100% agree with @gumtree that overly-handled foals are a PITA vs. the slithery, mostly unhandled weanling.

[va2txrider]

Environmental factors can become genetic: https://www.nature.com/news/fearful-memories-haunt-mouse-descendants-1.14272