I was having a discussion on a Jane Austen board and I got slapped on the wrist for not being specific to the late 1700s to the 1820s. Does anyone know of pictures of any?
Do a search for the Austin Carriage Museum, or Gloria Austin if that doesn’t work.
The museum is at Continental Acres Equine Resort in Weirsdale, FL.
There was an article in Equus a few years back about a lovely carriage that had belonged to a French king I believe in the 1800’s, but I think maybe much older than that, that Ms. Austin found in a horrible state of disrepair. She purchased it, brought it to the States and had it restored. I’ve seen it and it is spectacular.
If you can get down to the Museum it’s worth the drive.
There are a few. Very few in the US, because we drove them until they could not be used. Sleighs are better survivors common, only used part of the year, but from those times, very crude. Probably very few again.
Perhaps over in the UK, there would be more vehicles around from that period. They had a better road system in place, with hard surfaces developed for speed. The UK had more carriage builders to supply the classy vehicles, well off families to buy them. Families who then later pushed the old stuff into a corner of a barn out of the way, to sit waiting until years laters when someone finally cleans the barn out.
I would believe there are pictures of vehicles of those dates in books, but couldn’t give specifics without hunting thru a number of them.
If you are looking for Jane Austin type vehicles, you really need to look at English made vehicles.
SOme of those were imported to the US way back when but we also manufactured our own vehicles too and there are major differences based both on use and on materials
Most English vehicles were made of Oak and were therefore heavier both in weight and bulk
America had the advantage of lighter and stronger woods so many of our vehicles were lighter in both weight and style
Most very early vehicles are in museums of some kind
There are vehicles restored and in use in Williamsburg that are similar to vehicles that would have been used by Jane Austen
Haven’t we had this conversation before??? Didn’t you email me some time ago following a posting about carriages used for film work and when I said I owned several and have even done film work for period dramas and including Jane Austin stuff. I’ve posted photos previously but would be happy to do so again if you’re struggling to find them.
So the answer is a resounding… Yes indeed there are.
I restored a really nice gentleman’s gig from that period a couple of months ago and have currently got a roach coach in that’s a massive restoration project. This one’s from about 1836.
Yes, we did have the conversation. I was actually looking for photos to post on the forum. They are very picky about the posts there. God Forbid, one should post an American carriage or one from the Victorian period, even if it still is a good example.
Would they actually know the difference??? I say this in all seriousness because I absolutely know for a total fact that quite often reproduction carriages are used for film work and VERY often ones that are actually not strictly speaking correct.
I’ve said before that whenever I watch a period drama it causes conflict in our house because my wife is just enjoying the film and I’m there chuntering away about the carriage, harness, livery etc etc etc.
Furthermore dating of carriages is VERY difficult to do. Particularly when they’re so old and hence have often had to have replacement parts fitted over the centuries that have passed since they were first manufactured.
I build carriages. I repair old vehicles and I restore them. The work, materials needed and cost of restoration means that in truth there are VERY few vehicles ever even restored nowadays.
Furthermore I’d say that minimum of 95% of carriage drivers wouldn’t know how to accurately date an old vehicle and wouldn’t necessarily know what was original and what was repaired on it.
I seriously doubt (as in don’t believe!) that Jane Austin fans are going to be carriage afficienados.
[QUOTE=Thomas_1;3619876]
Would they actually know the difference??? I say this in all seriousness because I absolutely know for a total fact that quite often reproduction carriages are used for film work and VERY often ones that are actually not strictly speaking correct.
I’ve said before that whenever I watch a period drama it causes conflict in our house because my wife is just enjoying the film and I’m there chuntering away about the carriage, harness, livery etc etc etc.
Furthermore dating of carriages is VERY difficult to do. Particularly when they’re so old and hence have often had to have replacement parts fitted over the centuries that have passed since they were first manufactured.
I build carriages. I repair old vehicles and I restore them. The work, materials needed and cost of restoration means that in truth there are VERY few vehicles ever even restored nowadays.
Furthermore I’d say that minimum of 95% of carriage drivers wouldn’t know how to accurately date an old vehicle and wouldn’t necessarily know what was original and what was repaired on it.
I seriously doubt (as in don’t believe!) that Jane Austin fans are going to be carriage afficienados.[/QUOTE]
Haha! They are really anal.
The particular board was “Jane Austen’s Life and Times”.
This was the question:
Would it be considered even more luxurious than a curricle? (since two horses were required and I think a driver, but would seat 4, and could be covered in inclemant weather?). Or would it have been a town only option? Just trying to get a scale of wealth in terms of vehicle in my mind. (and realising that in 300 years, not much has really changed - people use their mode of transport as a visible proof of their status and/or perceived importance)
I didn’t answer it as directly but explained that carriages could accomodate different numbers of horses that pulled them and gave some links to pictures of different teams and horses.
I got my hand slapped! LOL
Moderator responses: "can you relate your reply only in terms of what is being asked in the question originally posed: that is, what were the relative comforts and costs of running a barouche versus a curricle in JAs era.
Let me explain that the whole point of the art of answering questions on this board is to reply specifically in relation to the question asked, with appropriate period correct sources.
Merely regurgitating myriad unconnected , out of period, unsupported by sources facts…well, it simply doesn’t help when we are dealing with a very small but specific historical period. And ignoring the question posed to exhibit ones knowledge whilst tempting , I know, makes a reply sadly redundant ( and also poses another burden on the moderators who have to try and check your sources).
So unless you can relate your reply to the original question asked by Shirley, and support your points with very relevant contemporary sources, then the posts will have to be removed from this board.
Thanks for understanding."
and
"I’m sure you’re aware of how particular we are about accuracy on this board. Are these English carriages? Are they from our period? If they are neither of these, and you would still like to discuss them, you should repost at Ramble and we’ll remove these messages later. However, if they are both English and of our period, please identify type and date. Thanks. "
[QUOTE=J. Turner;3619934]
Haha! They are really anal.
Merely regurgitating myriad unconnected , out of period, unsupported by sources facts…well, it simply doesn’t help when we are dealing with a very small but specific historical period. And ignoring the question posed to exhibit ones knowledge whilst tempting , I know, makes a reply sadly redundant ( and also poses another burden on the moderators who have to try and check your sources).
So unless you can relate your reply to the original question asked by Shirley, and support your points with very relevant contemporary sources, then the posts will have to be removed from this board.
Thanks for understanding."
meowwwwwww…note to self…avoid Jane Austen fan club sites…
best
[QUOTE=Tamara in TN;3620578]
meowwwwwww…note to self…avoid Jane Austen fan club sites…
best
Yes, beware the Janites.
[QUOTE=Thomas_1;3619876]
I seriously doubt (as in don’t believe!) that Jane Austin fans are going to be carriage afficienados.[/QUOTE]
Try writing a novel set in the period and you’ll be hearing from them! 
[QUOTE=MelantheLLC;3620927]
Try writing a novel set in the period and you’ll be hearing from them! ;)[/QUOTE]
For some reason carriages are big deal in Austen novels. In Mansfield Park, there’s a big to-do about who sits where. And the characters who are smitten with class are always commenting about his barouche or so and so’s curricle.
It’s a big deal when Catherine goes out with John Thorpe in his curricle (I think it’s a curricle) and he talks about how nice his is compared with Catherine’s brothers and how his horse can do 30 miles in a day.
Carriage aren’t so big in Pride & Prejudice, except Lizzie’s Aunt Gardiner comments as they’re walking around the grounds of Pemberley that she’d love to travel 'round in a phaeton pulled by four ponies.
In Sense and Sensibility, Marianne’s supposed suitor offers her a horse which her sister has to make her turn down because they have no stable and no means to keep it - an obvious reference to their recent step down in class.
Jane Austen is quite specific in her mention of types of carriages, but does not get into details regarding the horses in general.
Here’s a funny line from the nosey Aunt Norris in Mansfield Park,
“And, my dear Edmund,” added Mrs. Norris, “taking out two carriages when one will do, would be trouble for nothing; and, between ourselves, coachman is not very fond of the roads between this and Sotherton: he always complains bitterly of the narrow lanes scratching his carriage, and you know one should not like to have dear Sir Thomas, when he comes home, find all the varnish scratched off.”
In Mansfield Park the jealousy between the Bertram sisters over who gets to sit next to Henry Crawford who is driving that day:
"Wednesday was fine, and soon after breakfast the barouche arrived, Mr. Crawford driving his sisters; and as everybody was ready, there was nothing to be done but for Mrs. Grant to alight and the others to take their places. The place of all places, the envied seat, the post of honour, was unappropriated. To whose happy lot was it to fall? While each of the Miss Bertrams were meditating how best, and with the most appearance of obliging the others, to secure it, the matter was settled by Mrs. Grant’s saying, as she stepped from the carriage, “As there are five of you, it will be better that one should sit with Henry; and as you were saying lately that you wished you could drive, Julia, I think this will be a good opportunity for you to take a lesson.”
Happy Julia! Unhappy Maria! The former was on the barouche–box in a moment, the latter took her seat within, in gloom and mortification; and the carriage drove off …"
Is it unusual for a gentleman to drive his own barouche on a day’s outing. Would’ve there been a footman or groom there but unmentioned?
[QUOTE=MelantheLLC;3620927]
Try writing a novel set in the period and you’ll be hearing from them! ;)[/QUOTE] Whilst NO WAY could I write a novel along the lines of Jane Austin… I’m just NOT that sexually repressed ;)… Neither am I so obsessed with such a massive chip on my shoulder about social status. :yes:
Whilst I think that reading Jane Austin novels are akin to watching paint dry, I’m more than prepared to get into any argument about carriages and even relative costs and other merits of running a barouche or a curricle. Indeed I could be really anal and quote from books of the time.
Or to put it another way… bring it on :yes:
Its no wonder that her novels make a big thing of the equipage in use. She’s renowned for her biting social commentary and social class observation.
Truth is it’s perfectly “normal” at that time and for someone of Jane’s social class and strict upbringing to be making every day commentary or observation about those who are obsessed with outward signs of status and such “common trivia”. And truth is also that there’s a heck of a lot of writers of the time that make comment about carriages etc that’s central to the plot . It’s how I and others with such vehicles have been able to secure lucrative work for period dramas. The equipage was/is a huge social status thing.
Indeed it’s no different to nowadays folks made judgement then about possessions and particularly on the type of car used. So such conversation would be normal and would be absolutely akin to hearing he likes of some modern day A lister chatting with someone about the relative merits of having a Bentley versus a Rolls or a Jaguar.
The curricle was considered the aristocrat of the 2 wheeled tribe. Think of it as akin to buying a ferrari. It was later succeeded by the cabriolet as THE fashionable vehicle. It would normally be driven by 2 horses, though very occasionally by 4 though in a book of mine on carriages and from the period it says “on occasion in days gone by leaders would be added, but a pair should be its complement to its lightness and sporting appearance to be impressed as truly well turned out and for making strong appeal to men of wealth and leisure” - Marquis of Anglesey
The curricle was easy on horses and was very specifically designed for long distance work and as well as for their smartness, they were favoured with Corinthian whips of the Regency for driving long distances as well as for town and park use.
They were mounted on Cee springs and the springs almost perfectly repeated the curve of the vehicle and it was that which made it a design that was harmonious and stylish. As in all such vehicles seating in a curricle was for 2: one beside the driver, with usually, but not always - a groom’s seat between the springs behind.
The barouches… of which there are several if you want to get really pedantic : eg there’s the barouche landau and the barouche sociable (both of which I have)… need to be considered as the luxurious family capacity vehicle. So think Rolls Royce for this one. As such it remained popular despite many more economical carriages and even now its still the most represented for use by the Royal Mews for ceremonial use. The barouche is also much mentioned in literature of the time and particularly by Charles Dickens.
THE most notable horseman and carriage driver at that time, Sir John Lade, drove himself and his guests from his Palace, The Pavilion at Brighton, to Lewes races with a team of 6 horses. That barouches were much used by their owners as vehicles for their own, rather than their coachman’s driving, gave them a distinction unshared by other comparable carriages. In the earlier days of amateur four in hand driving it was the barouche that was most often put to this use and amonthst the first of the driving clubs in England was one established in 1808. It demanded of it’s members the driving of barouches rather than drags. Again I own a first edition of it’s rule book. Sir John Lade’s writings and escapades are in themselves I think THE very best social window on Regency society. (King George IV’s closest friend and acknowledged as an accomplished horseman and driver as well as being living a life full of utter social scandal. Trust me, his life story makes a much better read than anything Jane Austin could begin to imagine!)
Also have a read of this for what I think can most definitely be considered some real equine related social commentary of the time
[I]"We are not likely to find ourselves in agreement on the most pleasing coach-horse and we anticipate conjecture and thought with our readers and debate amongst them on this very subject.
Any gentleman coachman will know that for stamp of horses for a long days work, there is nothing that can beat a thoroughly blood bred one. The more hot blood you have in your horses, the better you will be able to complete a long and trying journey. Still such high bred horses are not what the common mass will consider and designate coach horses. For those with limited means their best hot blood horses are most often preserved for sport. For a true gentleman they would always be the choice of coach-horse.
The old-stage coachmen used to say they desired a big heavy horse for a hill team and the small compact quick-stepping fast-galloping little horse for a flat stage. Readers must remember that in those days the loads were heavy and drivers were common men and no doubt the big heavy plodding cold blood horse put his shoulder well to it and suited that ilk.
In these days when the road coach only carries dignified passengers and no luggage to speak of, we should prefer for all sorts of travel and terrains the shorter stepping and small, more refined, though thick warm blood horses. They are definitely more pleasing to drive than the slow, big lolloping team of under bred cold blood horses who are very tired and will accept hanging on the driver’s hands for miles.
Study the old pictures and stamp of horse used formerly for a flat stage and in France and other foreign places. It is not all disagreeable amusement trying to find horses of decent stamp and with some hot blood. Of course they had short tails and hence that oft alters the appearance of the stamp to a horse and renders it more difficult to determine the true stamp. The well-practiced eye of a gentleman very conversant with thoroughly blood bred horses will see its exact shape and can make out that though its appearance has been altered by the circumstances of a short tail, it may please him to have this sort of horse in his stable.
Remember though a warm blood is neither a hot blood nor a cold blood. These terms do not refer to body temperature but to the quality and temperament of the horse. They are a curious mix. Sangoine froid translates as cold blood but really it means phlegmatic and so is best for the common working man. Warmblut means a management temperament that is easy and is needed for a general coaching horse neither intended for racing and sport by the gentleman nor agricultural work by the common man.
A great difficulty with regard to coach-horses in a gentleman’s establishment, so different from public coach-horses, who run their twelve miles every day, is the want of work. The gentleman will have other sporting interests which detract his attention.
Therefore either the master or his ostler or groom must try to exercise what sense has been given each in apportioning the necessary amount of exercise to make up for the want of work. One great difficultly to contend with is that if his master is at home he dare not fitten the horses too much or give them too much exercise in the morning for fear he be ordered out in the afternoon and have a long journey before him. So reader you must remember to say whether you want the horses tomorrow and so the groom can accordingly give them their exercise.
It is these sort of establishments that benefit from coach-horses with a little less hot blood. The warm blood will look better than the round dray-horse and will thrive better than a thoroughly blood bred horse whose work is so irregular.
If the stamp of horses are chosen wisely they can look pleasant and may still be used for such as hunting on wheels or to drive to hare coursing and even perhaps to bring the victor home."
A Sporting Tour through England and a Great Part of Scotland - Colonel Thomas Thornton 1804[/I]
You are definitely a gem! Ha, with original sources. Unfortunately the Janites are combatitive source. Regardless, I still love Jane Austen and her books. You should love her too! She and Charles Dickens probably make up the most of your work! Did work on the latest BBC production, Little Dorrit? My beautiful boy, Matthew Macfadyen is in it. If you ever meet him, you must tell him an American girl thinks he’s awesome and wishes him the best (and to get rid of that wife of his … ha ha). Rupert Penry-Jones is pretty nice too. And Richard Armitage … sigh … you have so many handsome, wonderful actors …
So was a barouche likely to be used in London or did they use different vehicles given the crowded city roads?
And may I use your research, giving you credit of course, sometime?
PS - How do you pronounce “whilst”? With a hard or soft “i”? Like “Will” or “while”?
[QUOTE=J. Turner;3621127]
You are definitely a gem! Ha, with original sources. Unfortunately the Janites are combatitive source. [/QUOTE] Perhaps when COTH gets boring we should all go over there and say something controversial… with popcorn?
Regardless, I still love Jane Austen and her books. You should love her too!
Can’t stand her books at all. Susan who is the English literature aficionado in our house, hates her work with a passion
She and Charles Dickens probably make up the most of your work!
Not so sure about that. I’ve done pretty well out of William Makepeace Thackeray, Sarah Walters, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle and one of my favourites, Oscar Wilde. I particularly loved doing “An ideal husband” and for me his social commentary and insults are the epitome of taste and excellence.
Did work on the latest BBC production, Little Dorrit? My beautiful boy, Matthew Macfadyen is in it. If you ever meet him, you must tell him an American girl thinks he’s awesome and wishes him the best (and to get rid of that wife of his … ha ha). Rupert Penry-Jones is pretty nice too. And Richard Armitage … sigh … you have so many handsome, wonderful actors …
They’re not doing anything for me :winkgrin:
So was a barouche likely to be used in London or did they use different vehicles given the crowded city roads?
Barouches were indeed extensively used in London.
And may I use your research, giving you credit of course, sometime?
Yes indeed or else I can go there directly and stir up some decent debate.
PS - How do you pronounce “whilst”? With a hard or soft “i”? Like “Will” or “while”?
I know it’s a word not really in use in American English and I remember Susan being asked to repeat it when we were over there. She was also asked to say something rude in her lovely English accent… that’s a farm vet for you
Here it’s used widely. I say it as in while with the st on the end.
[QUOTE=Thomas_1;3621225]
Perhaps when COTH gets boring we should all go over there and say something controversial… with popcorn?
Can’t stand her books at all. Susan who is the English literature aficionado in our house, hates her work with a passion
Not so sure about that. I’ve done pretty well out of William Makepeace Thackeray, Sarah Walters, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle and one of my favourites, Oscar Wilde. I particularly loved doing “An ideal husband” and for me his social commentary and insults are the epitome of taste and excellence.
They’re not doing anything for me :winkgrin:
Barouches were indeed extensively used in London.
Yes indeed
PS - How do you pronounce “whilst”? With a hard or soft “i”? Like “Will” or “while”? [/QUOTE] I know it’s a word not really in use in American English and I remember Susan being asked to repeat it when we were over there. She was also asked to say something rude in her lovely English accent… that’s a farm vet for you
Here it’s used widely. I say it as in while with the st on the end.[/QUOTE]
You worked on An Ideal Husband? Oooo … Colin Firth and Rupert Everett. That was funny, well more than funny. I enjoyed The Importance of Being Earnest. Of course, Judi Dench is always incomparable.
Do you have a list of the films/TV films you’ve worked on and the scenes? That would be so fun to go back and look. I don’t suppose they let you talk to the actors … God Forbid. Have there ever been any that have taken time out to talk to you?
Now that they’re going to film Robin Hood in the UK, any chance you might work on those?
I think you said you worked on the newer persuasion with Rupert Penry-Jones because you told me the cob he rode was bay, not black.
At least Jane isn’t so depressing as Dickens or Eliot. Goodness, I watched The Mill on the Floss not too long ago and it was just about the most depressing story I’ve heard. No wonder I didn’t finish it in college.
Here are some of my favorite (well some enjoyed, but not favorite) period films:
Pride & Prejudice (1995/2005),
Sense & Sensibility (both),
Persuasion (both),
The Way We Live Now (BBC),
North & South (BBC),
Northanger Abbey (2007)
Stage Beauty
Vanity Fair
The Madness of King George
Under the Greenwood Tree
Wives and Daughters
Gosford Park
Mansfield Park
Shakespeare in Love
Elizabeth/The golden Age
I did enjoy The Duchess despite the lukewarm reviews.
Were all horses’ tails docked in the 1700 and 1800s? Or mostly carriage horses? In paintings from the day it looks like hunters were docked too. I realize there is a certain convenience of not getting a tail caught up in the harness, but wigs, hair was so big, I would think that a riding horse’s tail might be his or her crowning glory.
Also, how often were colts gelded?
[QUOTE=Thomas_1;3621102]
Whilst NO WAY could I write a novel along the lines of Jane Austin… I’m just NOT that sexually repressed ;)… Neither am I so obsessed with such a massive chip on my shoulder about social status. :yes:
Whilst I think that reading Jane Austin novels are akin to watching paint dry, I’m more than prepared to get into any argument about carriages and even relative costs and other merits of running a barouche or a curricle. Indeed I could be really anal and quote from books of the time.
Or to put it another way… bring it on :yes:
Its no wonder that her novels make a big thing of the equipage in use. She’s renowned for her biting social commentary and social class observation.
Truth is it’s perfectly “normal” at that time and for someone of Jane’s social class and strict upbringing to be making every day commentary or observation about those who are obsessed with outward signs of status and such “common trivia”. And truth is also that there’s a heck of a lot of writers of the time that make comment about carriages etc that’s central to the plot . It’s how I and others with such vehicles have been able to secure lucrative work for period dramas. The equipage was/is a huge social status thing.
Indeed it’s no different to nowadays folks made judgement then about possessions and particularly on the type of car used. So such conversation would be normal and would be absolutely akin to hearing he likes of some modern day A lister chatting with someone about the relative merits of having a Bentley versus a Rolls or a Jaguar.
The curricle was considered the aristocrat of the 2 wheeled tribe. Think of it as akin to buying a ferrari. It was later succeeded by the cabriolet as THE fashionable vehicle. It would normally be driven by 2 horses, though very occasionally by 4 though in a book of mine on carriages and from the period it says “on occasion in days gone by leaders would be added, but a pair should be its complement to its lightness and sporting appearance to be impressed as truly well turned out and for making strong appeal to men of wealth and leisure” - Marquis of Anglesey
The curricle was easy on horses and was very specifically designed for long distance work and as well as for their smartness, they were favoured with Corinthian whips of the Regency for driving long distances as well as for town and park use.
They were mounted on Cee springs and the springs almost perfectly repeated the curve of the vehicle and it was that which made it a design that was harmonious and stylish. As in all such vehicles seating in a curricle was for 2: one beside the driver, with usually, but not always - a groom’s seat between the springs behind.
The barouches… of which there are several if you want to get really pedantic : eg there’s the barouche landau and the barouche sociable (both of which I have)… need to be considered as the luxurious family capacity vehicle. So think Rolls Royce for this one. As such it remained popular despite many more economical carriages and even now its still the most represented for use by the Royal Mews for ceremonial use. The barouche is also much mentioned in literature of the time and particularly by Charles Dickens.
THE most notable horseman and carriage driver at that time, Sir John Lade, drove himself and his guests from his Palace, The Pavilion at Brighton, to Lewes races with a team of 6 horses. That barouches were much used by their owners as vehicles for their own, rather than their coachman’s driving, gave them a distinction unshared by other comparable carriages. In the earlier days of amateur four in hand driving it was the barouche that was most often put to this use and amonthst the first of the driving clubs in England was one established in 1808. It demanded of it’s members the driving of barouches rather than drags. Again I own a first edition of it’s rule book. Sir John Lade’s writings and escapades are in themselves I think THE very best social window on Regency society. (King George IV’s closest friend and acknowledged as an accomplished horseman and driver as well as being living a life full of utter social scandal. Trust me, his life story makes a much better read than anything Jane Austin could begin to imagine!)
Also have a read of this for what I think can most definitely be considered some real equine related social commentary of the time
[I]"We are not likely to find ourselves in agreement on the most pleasing coach-horse and we anticipate conjecture and thought with our readers and debate amongst them on this very subject.
Any gentleman coachman will know that for stamp of horses for a long days work, there is nothing that can beat a thoroughly blood bred one. The more hot blood you have in your horses, the better you will be able to complete a long and trying journey. Still such high bred horses are not what the common mass will consider and designate coach horses. For those with limited means their best hot blood horses are most often preserved for sport. For a true gentleman they would always be the choice of coach-horse.
The old-stage coachmen used to say they desired a big heavy horse for a hill team and the small compact quick-stepping fast-galloping little horse for a flat stage. Readers must remember that in those days the loads were heavy and drivers were common men and no doubt the big heavy plodding cold blood horse put his shoulder well to it and suited that ilk.
In these days when the road coach only carries dignified passengers and no luggage to speak of, we should prefer for all sorts of travel and terrains the shorter stepping and small, more refined, though thick warm blood horses. They are definitely more pleasing to drive than the slow, big lolloping team of under bred cold blood horses who are very tired and will accept hanging on the driver’s hands for miles.
Study the old pictures and stamp of horse used formerly for a flat stage and in France and other foreign places. It is not all disagreeable amusement trying to find horses of decent stamp and with some hot blood. Of course they had short tails and hence that oft alters the appearance of the stamp to a horse and renders it more difficult to determine the true stamp. The well-practiced eye of a gentleman very conversant with thoroughly blood bred horses will see its exact shape and can make out that though its appearance has been altered by the circumstances of a short tail, it may please him to have this sort of horse in his stable.
Remember though a warm blood is neither a hot blood nor a cold blood. These terms do not refer to body temperature but to the quality and temperament of the horse. They are a curious mix. Sangoine froid translates as cold blood but really it means phlegmatic and so is best for the common working man. Warmblut means a management temperament that is easy and is needed for a general coaching horse neither intended for racing and sport by the gentleman nor agricultural work by the common man.
A great difficulty with regard to coach-horses in a gentleman’s establishment, so different from public coach-horses, who run their twelve miles every day, is the want of work. The gentleman will have other sporting interests which detract his attention.
Therefore either the master or his ostler or groom must try to exercise what sense has been given each in apportioning the necessary amount of exercise to make up for the want of work. One great difficultly to contend with is that if his master is at home he dare not fitten the horses too much or give them too much exercise in the morning for fear he be ordered out in the afternoon and have a long journey before him. So reader you must remember to say whether you want the horses tomorrow and so the groom can accordingly give them their exercise.
It is these sort of establishments that benefit from coach-horses with a little less hot blood. The warm blood will look better than the round dray-horse and will thrive better than a thoroughly blood bred horse whose work is so irregular.
If the stamp of horses are chosen wisely they can look pleasant and may still be used for such as hunting on wheels or to drive to hare coursing and even perhaps to bring the victor home."
A Sporting Tour through England and a Great Part of Scotland - Colonel Thomas Thornton 1804[/I][/QUOTE]
Thomas, I am actually starting my paper called Mr. Darcy’s Jag: Carriages and Characterization in Jane Austen. Is there any source for these two books you recommend? Or a way I can get my greasy paws on a reprint? Without going to England that is. Are there any other sources you recommend? Would you be willing to be a source? I have a new email if you want to get a hold of me there: seamusmalcolm@cox.net
I’ve not got the faintest idea. Obviously I’m in the UK and I’m not a book seller. Albeit I’ve been collecting equestrian books since I was a boy I don’t have a clue what the American Market is like.
I don’t believe that there’s any reprints of the Colonel Thomas Thornton book and I just have 2 originals.
Have a look at this though. You might get some help from that source.
http://chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?p=4607701&highlight=binns#post4607701
You need to be aware though that even as reprints these publications tend to be quite pricey and ordinarily about £120 - £250.
That is a bad link in your post #18 Thomas. Brings us right back to this thread.
We have a book “Carriages At Eight” by Frank Huggett written in 1979. He gives a great many references he used in the front of the book. Book is about Victorian England and covers a lot of ground. Does take the fun out when you hear how many were employed sweeping manure off the strees daily. How many tons of manure were hauled away by the night men. How many people were hurt, killed, by horse and carriage accidents in the city. Some stabbed by a pole thru the rear of their vehicle! Black Beauty’s time period.
Carriage Association of America has lots of old book reprints, maybe something in their store would be helpful information. And you might ask the CAA for USA old Driving Book dealers names, to locate original books.
I can’t add to the discussion except to point you to the site:
www.AbeBooks.com
I love this site.
Not only does it (actually vendors -it is an aggregate site) have a zillion books but there are lots of vendors who will sell either PDFs or copies of old books much more cheaply.
For $50. the CAA will research specific vehicles for you.
Also, ebay is your friend for old carriage books. They often have extremely rare and interesting titles from the nineteenth and twentieth centuries on old carriages, etc. Often, they are well used and the price will reflect that.
