Jane AUSTEN.
This is an Austin; http://www.igg.org.uk/gansg/00-app1/austin7.jpg
[QUOTE=goodhors;4620479]
Looking at the Stubbs carriage links, one after the other, it caught my eye, that there were no vertical dashboards on the old carriages. Even toeboard was rather short, though poles are LONG. Interesting to wonder whether dash came along as a “sensitivity” item to avoid looking at horse rumps. Or were practical additions to avoid splashing, or just to add a better line to vehicle design.[/QUOTE] You have to appreciate though that Stubbs paintings are most definitely an artistic interpretation.
By example consider the conformation of the pair in Stubbs “Lady and Gentleman in a Carriage” painting.
Fabulous paintings but most definitely not in scale and marvellous interpretations.
I do appreciate them for just being beautiful. As with other artists of the times, perspective and proportions often were askew, which to me is part of the charm and appeal. Correct placement of the the legs in speed, were not right until after cameras were developed to SEE the true movement in sequence. Rocking horse legs also appeal to me when I look at race paintings of that time. Still Stubb’s horses just are superb to me, and I think Whistlejacket is about the best, in a realistic type horse painting.
I did like this carriage and pair though. We had a similar situation with a carriage we purchased.
http://www.abcgallery.com/S/stubbs/stubbs28.html
Poor proportions still happen in real life. Husband and I were the tiny people in the seat, vehicle was just quite LARGE, high-wheeled, though suited to our large horses, who were not quite as fat or tiny headed as the painted pair. Fat makes almost any horse look sleek, shows a GOOD owner! I think tiny heads were supposed to show as “breedy,” maybe Arab crosses of the times, when people wanted that small-head look on their animals in paintings.
The seats on our vehicle were quite deep and wide, could actually put 3 LARGE gentlemen in warm clothing in with no problem, in both front or back seat. It was sold to us as a Hunting Break. Only one like it around. If you sat back against seatback, your feet did not reach the floor, kind of like small children in an adult chair! Our kids riding along had legs sticking straight out ahead!! I am not short-legged, but this vehicle was too big for us. Was fun to take friends along, we all fit easily!
Now we SIT in a vehicle before purchase. “Try it on for size.” We don’t just consider how well it fits the horses! Carriage did sell well though, had a good name, authentication of previous owners, so we made a goodly profit. I was EXCITED. It went to Europe.
[QUOTE=Thomas_1;4621112]
You have to appreciate though that Stubbs paintings are most definitely an artistic interpretation.
By example consider the conformation of the pair in Stubbs “Lady and Gentleman in a Carriage” painting.
Fabulous paintings but most definitely not in scale and marvellous interpretations.[/QUOTE]
The link you posted was to the painting I mentioned.
It’s a very famous one and called “Lady and Gentleman in a Carriage”
In the absence of you telling me what carriages were mentioned in Jane Austen I’ve been doing some studying. Turned up something quite interesting… well interesting to me anyways!
Now I was curious about what carriages would have been “of the time” and went on to further investigate. I came to learn that Persuasion was her final novel and started in the summer or autumn of 1815 and the first draft was completed on 18th July 1816. It was published as I understand it, after her death in 1817.
Then I found Sue’s copy of Persuasion and discovered something totally fascinating in it. Her’s is a a 1934 Oxford University Press Edition by Dr RW Chapman and there I’ve found a print of a carriage because incidentally this book has an Appendix on “carriages and travel of the times”.
Well fancy me not realising that! We had that all the time. So I turned straight to it and something absolutely smacked me between the eyes as wrong!
In that edition of Persuasion contained in the Appendix is a print of a carriage titled “A landaulet with Birch’s patent roof, and Ackermann’s patent moveable axle”. It further said "built by Mr Britch of Queen Street, Lincoln’s Inn Fields and Patented March 1st 1819 at R Ackermann’s, 101 Strand, London.
It is in fact what is correctly called a barouche landau that’s illustrated.
Eager to depict a carriage contemporaneous with the story, the editor of the book has in fact fallen into a trap and presented one which is so up to the minute that it wasn’t actually of the time. It incorporated something that hadn’t even been invented or patented by Ackerman when the book was actually completed.
I guess that takes us right back to my initial assertion in post 7 that most Jane Austen fans wouldn’t strictly speaking know what was correct. Seems that’s been the way for some time… At least from 1934 according to what I’ve just discovered and found.
Now I’m guessing that this edition has been studied by many English Literature scholars over the decades and I’m thinking that not too many would have immediately had the flash of light I had and known that the picture showed something not invented when the book was written.
End of the day, it’s like I said earlier. There’s not that many folks in the world know about dating and history of carriages… or be sad enough to notice that something pictured wasn’t right. But regulars will know that I’ve said before I spend a lot of time watching period dramas with horse drawn carriages saying “that’s not right”
But fancy the publisher putting in something and even labelling that it wasn’t patented till after she’d finished writing. I’m wondering if the Jane Austen fanatics the OP posted about knew that or if they’ve even ever seen that edition?
[QUOTE=Jaegermonster;3619035]
Do a search for the Austin Carriage Museum, or Gloria Austin if that doesn’t work.
The museum is at Continental Acres Equine Resort in Weirsdale, FL.
QUOTE]
The correct name of the Museum is the Florida Carriage Museum and Resort; it is amazing, an unbelievable collection of vehicles, beautiful grounds, etc.
I have certainly found this thread quite interesting. I taught American and British lit classes to 11th and 12th graders for more years than reasonable. I really like Jane Austen’s works, as well as the Bronte sisters’ novels and, of course, Dickens. I love to watch the Masterpiece Theater adaptations shown on public telelvision. The last two episodes of Emma were shown this past Sunday.
Because I have had a life-long love of horses, I really like to imagine what it was like to use horse drawn vehicles to travel. Riding in a carriage or even a cart today is such a novelty.
My late husband and I used to participate in a local event-- a three-day tour of homes called the Audubon Pilgrimage. It celebrated the time in the early 1820s when John James Audubon was engaged as a tutor for the daughter of one of the plantation families in West Feliciana, Louisiana.
Everyone had to dress up in authentic reproductions of clothes worn using styles popular then - ca. 1824. A great deal of care was taken to use authentic materials, patterns, styles, etc – from a book of fashion plates from the Regency period reproduced by Dover Books. This “pilgrimage” attracted tourists from all over-- it has gotten even more popular because of the renewed interest in Jane Austen-- people actually come now to look at the volunteers and the tour guides in their reproduction clothes instead of coming just to tour the homes because the period coincides closely with the era of her books and life.
Lots of research is done to make sure the fashions were correct right down to the buttons, ties, and hooks and eyes-- no zippers! People actually had dresses made that copied the fashion plates right down to the colors and kinds of materials used, etc. (all natural fibres- no synthetic blends allowed) Everything had to be submitted to a local history teacher who would give her approval or not! I was told that when she died, she was buried in one of her pilgrimage outfits. The pilgrimage has been held for more than 30 years each March. I still have my dresses- complete with spensers, caps, tuckers, collars, sleeves, pantaloons, gloves, hats, reticules and fans, etc. My favorite is a riding habit that I wore while riding (aside on a saddle without a leaping horn that dated from the 1820s and had been restored.)
My husband was one of the first men to have clothes made as well – the coats were wool and rather hot even for March when worn with a silk or linen vest and a full cotton shirt with high collar and a cravat under them. He and I both provided “color” by riding along the lanes of the extensive grounds of some of the homes.
I often wished we had been able to find an appropriate wheeled vehicle to use-- spending almost 8 hours a day – except for lunch – on horseback can be very tiring even when using gaited horses. At the time (1980s) it was very hard to find anyone who could tell us what kind of vehicle was needed or where to get one or have one made, so we just rode our horses.
I have always wanted a ladies’ phaeton (would that have been the correct vehicle for a woman to drive?) and a Standardbred or a Morgan – what I have are a new Pioneer forecart, a piano box “doctor’s” buggy built in 1986, and a Voiture Robert’s vis-a-vis carriage that was built about 10 years ago.
I have two black Percherons (mare and gelding)-- not a team, a 14 hand bay half-Morgan Mare, a chestnut 17 hand walking horse gelding, and a 14 hand blue sabino walking horse mare – each is trained to ride and drive-- except the Perchies-- they are for driving only. (All these horses were rescues, a couple literally bought at the auction door.)
As for the Jane Austen board-- it sounds like a bunch of English majors with nothing better to do.
My formal livery is all original. The drivers and grooms coats are all box cloth wool. VERY heavy to carry. But what they do is they keep you warm in winter and surprisingly cool in summer. Even though they’re so heavy, the sun just can’t penetrate the wool. When they get wet though they weigh a ton and can take a fortnight to dry! It’s a bit like trying to hang up and dry a wet sheep!!
A ladies phaeton would be a lovely vehicle. Either that or a liverpool or lawson gig would be excitely the right sort of stylish vehicle for a wealthy lady.
Over here a Percheron would never ever be used though. Percherons would be used as heavy horses so for agricultural or haulage work by a work man or farmer. A light harness horse of t/b or warmblood type and the likes of a Morgan is perfect. A welathy gentleman or lady would want something altogether more stylish and “sporty”. With good flashy paces and high knee action but good forward reach and speed.
When my own daughter got married, her wedding was basically all horsey people. I drove her to get married and she drove her husband away!
Thanks so much for the information. My drafts are used mainly with my forecart and harrow to maintain pastures and lots – I don’t have a mower yet. Well, I do, but it is a gasoline mower.
My forecart has changeable shafts so it can be pulled with either a draft or one of my light horses. It is a modern steel 2-wheeled vehicle made by the Amish for farm work and as an errand cart.
The Roberts vis-a-vis is quite large, and lots of people here in the US use one or two drafts or draft crosses to pull these. This is especially true of commercial carriage operations in large cities. I am hoping to use it to give carriage ride tours of my historic town-- Clinton, founded in 1824. I realize that this town probably would not pass as an “historic” town in the UK, but here it does.
My buggy-- I don’t know if you all have “buggies” in the UK – is built on an old pattern popular in the US in the 1800s and even early 1900s that is called a doctor’s buggy, but it was built by Mennonites in 1986 (the date is painted on it) They call it a courting buggy.
I have a couple of books that are reproductions of coachmaker’s books. The colors are really something-- not drab black.
I have seen several pictures of a lady’s phaeton, but do not know what a liverpool or lawson gig looks like-- but since it’s a gig, I would guess that it is a 2-wheeled vehicle?? Is there a site on the web that has a pic of one of these? But, alas, barring the winning of the lottery, I am no longer, in reality, a lady wealthy enought to afford one.
I am very much in reduced circumstances as the Austen era people would say. In 19th century America, my situation would be termed as “improverished gentility” a state that my ancestors experienced after the South lost the War Between the States.
Austrian
check out the Austrian collection at the Schonbrunn in Vienna:cool:; I avtually saw them in use by theSRS:yes: but, did not know :no: what to look forl I will check through my photo:yes: collection.
Morven Park?
Isn’t there a carriage collection at Morven Park?
I’ve recommended The Shoenbrunn in Vienna to folks here before. It’s not exactly “handy” for the OP though!
I’ve a mass of photos too. I go there at least once every year.
http://www.schoenbrunn.at/en/things-to-know/tour-through-the-park/carriage-museum.html
But again it’s irrelevent to the OP’s questions. She wants to know VERY specifically what carriages were used by the English
I personally think the Royal Mews in London is much better and VERY convenient… for me anyway 
:
http://www.royalcollection.org.uk/default.asp?action=article&ID=31
Winmill Carriage Collection Museum at Morven Park
Travel through Time:
The Winmill Carriage Collection Museum at Morven Park
Named for Viola Winmill of Warrenton, the museum includes an incredible variety of horse-drawn vehicles from the mid-19th and early-20th Centuries, including buggies, coaches, a fire engine, and a hearse. Tours are subject to staff availability. Tickets must be purchased at the Coach House Visitor Center.
Are there any collections that may be viewed on-line? Though the British royal collection and the Austrian collection may be beautiful, they don’t have an on-line tour, neither does the Morven Park site.
Also the two former sites have mainly very fancy carriages used by royalty-- I would like to see some vehicles used by “everyday’” people of the means to afford wheeled transportation – not the toys of royalty pretty as they may be.
What about collections that would show vehicles used by doctors, lawyers, professors, planters, factors and bankers?
Seriously, you would be better to just look online for libraries that had the old carriage catalogs (in the US) like this link:
(http://ia360632.us.archive.org/1/items/wholesalepriceli00nort/wholesalepriceli00nort.pdf)
The catalogs will show you the types of carriages that plied the American roads in the later part of the 1800’s/early 1900’s – VASTLY different from the European vehicles which were considerably more heavy.
Vehicles used by doc, layers, professors, planters, factors, and bankers were pretty much the same. The manner of vehicles used by anyone depended upon the quality of the road – crappy roads meant countryside which meant lightweight buggies and runabouts; better roads meant towns which meant sporting and formal vehicles.
What a neat catalog!
THANKS for posting it! (I’m a former archivist … I should have thought of that approach … out of it too long! Gave me a “Duh” moment!)
THANKS again!!!
