Arena planning, er, dreaming; tell me about ceilings, insulation, and ventilation

So I decided to post some questions that I have been compiling, while taking a break from reading a historic train-wreck of a thread. I am in the very early stages of planning an indoor with a handful of stalls; kind of actually dreaming at this point. It’s quite a ways off while I work on the financial aspect. But I have some time on my hands to (over)think. I’ve done some searching the threads and google searches, but can’t quite find what I’m looking for.

Here’s what I am thinking at this point: 80ish X 120. Might have to settle for a touch narrower if the 80 feet is cost prohibitive. But absolutely no narrower than 60. I’d like to leave the option for lengthening later if I like. I have decided to put my effort in to the indoor only, rather than an indoor and an outdoor. I live in a crappy enough environment that the outdoor would not get as much use as the indoor and I’m afraid the footing would blow away anyways. So, the indoor with be my exclusive riding area; day or night, summer or winter. I will need to have a handful of stalls attached, but walled off from the arena. Haven’t decided if it makes sense to build a longer structure and wall off the one end for stalls, build a separate lean-to on the short wall, or lean-to on the long wall. I don’t want to limit myself on what can be built in case in the future I decide to bring in a trainer and a handful of board horses. But at the moment, I’m just a (mostly) DIY ammy with only my own show horses and prospects that desperately need to be worked throughout the winter.

On to the specifics…

Any of y’all have a dropped ceiling in your indoor arenas? I see some stunning, albeit pricy, arenas that have a glossy white dropped ceiling but I can’t tell what it’s made from. This probably sounds stupid, but what kind of material is it? How is it physically hung from the rafters? How does ventilation work with a dropped ceiling? I like the idea of the lower ceiling (obviously I need it high enough to jump, looking at 16-18 feet clearance) to keep some warmth from rising to the vaulted ceiling and dissipating out through a vent. But the dropped ceilings look a tad claustrophobic (though I’ve never ridden in one). Thoughts?

For those in colder mid-west climates, what has worked to best ventilate an arena? I’m still toying with how to insulate (see below) and whether I want to heat it at all (just to take make it tolerable), and if I do heat it some, I don’t want to lose the heat through the ventilation system. But… I have been in stuffy, poorly-ventilated barns and it sucks. So I get it. Just weighing options here.

What about insulation? Obviously I don’t want to create a bird-heaven in my attempt to keep my arena from turning in to an ice box. I could use to explore the spray foam insulation some more. Insulate the ceiling? Sides? Both? If you were to do one while the structure was being built and one down the road, which do you do first? Initially I thought to myself that just having an uninsulated wind break would be good enough. Then I remember the barn my family leased for a while as I was growing up; it was not insulated and turned in to an ice box in the extreme cold. I swear sometimes it felt colder inside than it did outside. I have ridden in a few insulated non-heated arenas, and the difference between the arena and outside was astonishing. So I think insulation will be a greatly appreciated investment. But I’m unsure of how I want to do it…

What about keeping birds from nesting in the rafters and bombing me while I’m riding (assuming I did not do the dropped ceiling)? I can’t not accurately put in to words how much I HATE having bird crap all over everything.

Sorry for the brain dump. I was gathering questions while at work today :yes:

Dropped ceiling is usually just a ceiling on the bottom of the rafters. You see this in a post and steel barn or “pole building” (i.e. Morton). So it’s not actually dropped. I have never seen an insulated steel arena with a dropped ceiling (the insulation is up along the rafters–open peak). An insulated pole barn doesn’t feel claustrophobic, imo, I have ridden in a few, but they can be humid (and the barns can reek) if there isn’t adequate ventilation. I would work with an experienced builder/HVAC specialist who understands horses on what type of fans, or air exchange you will need.

If you are going to DIY the insulation down the road, you still have to let them know before you build, so they give you rafters that can hold the extra weight. Otherwise they bid out differently (cheaper). I have gotten barn bids and this came up.

A 16 or 18’ sidewall barn with insulation, HVAC & ceiling will blow your mind on the cost increase, btw. Then you add in heating costs and running a heater…it’s crazy $$ for a private farm. [I say that having no idea what your personal financial situation is, of course.] I think you should talk to a builder and get a bid per square foot for each type you are considering. You may decide it is better to go un-insulated and larger, when you look at what you get for your money either way. You were talking about jumping–I wonder if you will be happy with 120’ length–I feel like that will be pretty tight. I would consider maximizing size over insulation if it is your only arena.

http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/engineer/facts/10-059.htm

http://www.equisearch.com/article/barn_heating_ventilation_032708

http://extension.psu.edu/animals/equine/horse-facilities/documents/horse-facility-temperature-and-humidity-during-winter-conditions (Eileen Fabian Wheeler also has a book you may want to read).

Plan on at least $3 per square foot just for the ceiling and insulation.

The farm we almost bought this summer had an amazing indoor (keep in mind it was built for a commercial boarding facility and not for personal use and was VERY expensive).

It was 72’ wide, I’m not sure of the length, but I think 180’ - 200’. I’m pretty sure it was 16’ sidewalls (with finished ceiling). 6’ slanted kickwalls. They had eve lighting on both long sides (east & west), and ample lighting (I think 24 lights), so the indoor was never dark. It was both insulated and heated (4 propane heaters - one in each corner). They also had ceiling fans. The temperature was comfortable year round, and it didn’t cost that much to heat (credit to insulation done right).

If I ever win the lottery and can build an arena from scratch, it will be very similar to that one.

[QUOTE=Kodidog763;8947002]
The farm we almost bought this summer had an amazing indoor (keep in mind it was built for a commercial boarding facility and not for personal use and was VERY expensive).

If I ever win the lottery and can build an arena from scratch, it will be very similar to that one.[/QUOTE]

YES PLEASE! That is beautiful. <3

Not to hijack, but I am continually amazed at how reasonable it is to board a horse at a nice (I’m not talking fancy-training board) facility in MN. Particularly field board, there is just so much competition.

[QUOTE=TrotTrotPumpkn;8946947]
Dropped ceiling is usually just a ceiling on the bottom of the rafters. You see this in a post and steel barn or “pole building” (i.e. Morton). So it’s not actually dropped. I have never seen an insulated steel arena with a dropped ceiling (the insulation is up along the rafters–open peak). An insulated pole barn doesn’t feel claustrophobic, imo, I have ridden in a few, but they can be humid (and the barns can reek) if there isn’t adequate ventilation. I would work with an experienced builder/HVAC specialist who understands horses on what type of fans, or air exchange you will need.

If you are going to DIY the insulation down the road, you still have to let them know before you build, so they give you rafters that can hold the extra weight. Otherwise they bid out differently (cheaper). I have gotten barn bids and this came up.

A 16 or 18’ sidewall barn with insulation, HVAC & ceiling will blow your mind on the cost increase, btw. Then you add in heating costs and running a heater…it’s crazy $$ for a private farm. [I say that having no idea what your personal financial situation is, of course.] I think you should talk to a builder and get a bid per square foot for each type you are considering. You may decide it is better to go un-insulated and larger, when you look at what you get for your money either way. You were talking about jumping–I wonder if you will be happy with 120’ length–I feel like that will be pretty tight. I would consider maximizing size over insulation if it is your only arena.

http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/engineer/facts/10-059.htm

http://www.equisearch.com/article/barn_heating_ventilation_032708

http://extension.psu.edu/animals/equine/horse-facilities/documents/horse-facility-temperature-and-humidity-during-winter-conditions (Eileen Fabian Wheeler also has a book you may want to read).[/QUOTE]

Lots of good info here. Thank you for taking the time to reply. You are correct, I’m probably a little crazy to even be considering insulating and heating. I’m no sugar momma by any means and it is a private facility for the immediate future, and indefinitely. I just don’t want to limit the potential of the building. I should probably just focus on getting the structure up, and concentrate the insulation/heating to the stall area; most of my horses live outside and are allowed to hair up for the winter, but it would be nice to not have to battle a wooly mammoth hair coat in the winter months of riding… and be able to get decent sale pictures in the dead of winter. Anyways…

My “ideal standard” for minimum size has always been 80 X 120. A trainer I have ridden (and jumped) with previously had that size for an indoor. Current trainer has I think around 80 X 112; that’s an educated guess, in watching a video of my greenie, counting the columns, and guessing distance between them in comparing them to known objects (jump wings, corral panels, poles, doorways, etc) Not a good method, I know. But I’m deployed and can’t ever remember to ask how big the arena is. She is able to set up an outside line and diagonal line on 3-5 strides I think (again, going off a video here and my horse is a super green bean, so he’s allowed to add where needed, but the outside line looks like 3, the diagonal looks like 4 or 5). So, I think I could get away with 120 as most of the heavy duty jumping will be done at my trainer (1200 miles away). But again, don’t want to limit the potential of the building.

Thank you for the links!! I have not gotten a chance to read them yet; that PSU article is quite long. But I shall do so on an upcoming off day. Thank you again!

[QUOTE=airhorse;8946961]
Plan on at least $3 per square foot just for the ceiling and insulation.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for that figure. Very helpful when trying to plan the overall cost.

[QUOTE=Kodidog763;8947002]
The farm we almost bought this summer had an amazing indoor (keep in mind it was built for a commercial boarding facility and not for personal use and was VERY expensive).

It was 72’ wide, I’m not sure of the length, but I think 180’ - 200’. I’m pretty sure it was 16’ sidewalls (with finished ceiling). 6’ slanted kickwalls. They had eve lighting on both long sides (east & west), and ample lighting (I think 24 lights), so the indoor was never dark. It was both insulated and heated (4 propane heaters - one in each corner). They also had ceiling fans. The temperature was comfortable year round, and it didn’t cost that much to heat (credit to insulation done right).

If I ever win the lottery and can build an arena from scratch, it will be very similar to that one.[/QUOTE]

That arena is gorgeous!! Exactly the ceiling I was thinking of.

Speaking of eve lighting, I assume eve lighting would be detrimental to the overall premise of insulating and trying to retain heat? I would think there would be some heat loss through those panels. I meant to ask that in the original post, but forgot to (see signature line…). I don’t think they’re practical for my area anyway due to the violent summer hail storms.

[QUOTE=BroncoMo;8948443]
That arena is gorgeous!! Exactly the ceiling I was thinking of.

Speaking of eve lighting, I assume eve lighting would be detrimental to the overall premise of insulating and trying to retain heat? I would think there would be some heat loss through those panels. I meant to ask that in the original post, but forgot to (see signature line…). I don’t think they’re practical for my area anyway due to the violent summer hail storms.[/QUOTE]

We get very cold here, but I was never cold in that arena, so I don’t think there was significant heat loss through the eve lighting (especially after seeing the heating bills). We also get our fair share of hail, and after 10 years the eve lighting was still in great condition.

[QUOTE=Kodidog763;8948498]
We get very cold here, but I was never cold in that arena, so I don’t think there was significant heat loss through the eve lighting (especially after seeing the heating bills). We also get our fair share of hail, and after 10 years the eve lighting was still in great condition.[/QUOTE]

Wonderful, thank you. Perhaps I could get away with the eave lights by only installing on the walls opposite of the prevailing winds.

If you are concerned about heat loss, put up an inner and outer layer of eve lighting to create some dead air space.

The clear stuff is indestructible, if it gets hail damage, the rest of the barn is going to be trashed also.

[QUOTE=airhorse;8948597]
If you are concerned about heat loss, put up an inner and outer layer of eve lighting to create some dead air space.

The clear stuff is indestructible, if it gets hail damage, the rest of the barn is going to be trashed also.[/QUOTE]

Excellent idea. Thank you! I do need to look in to these clear panels more. I had always seen the yellow crappy looking ones, and I remember those being damaged in the lease barn I grew up in. But I’ve heard people speak of these clear ones as if they are a new thing (or I just might be living under a rock).